What kind of knives were used?

[lynn cates]

up and down

Hello Mike.

"The Canonical murders have both upward and downward cuts."

Certainly true of Kate. Perhaps not of Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike.

"The Canonical murders have both upward and downward cuts."

Certainly true of Kate. Perhaps not of Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

Heartily agree with you there Lynn. There are differentiators among the victims wounds should one be prepared to see them as such. Thats why I believe, as you do, that Polly and Annie met someone different than the later victims.

Cheers mate,
Mike R

[lynn cates]

skill

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Yes, I think that the skill levels were quite different. Kate's wounds were, "Possibly the work of an imitator."

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

I would still contend that a bill hook (as used by dock labourers to cut ropes and separate bales) would be a good possibility...suitable for both cutting and ripping and unlikely to break...and for a dock labourer (thousands living in Whitechapel and Wapping) an everyday tool which you'd have an excuse to carry whether at work or not (because you could always claim to be on the way to, or on the way home from, a hiring)...

Now who was that listed as possessing a hook and strop?

(snicker)

Dave

[Errata]

I would still contend that a bill hook (as used by dock labourers to cut ropes and separate bales) would be a good possibility...suitable for both cutting and ripping and unlikely to break...and for a dock labourer (thousands living in Whitechapel and Wapping) an everyday tool which you'd have an excuse to carry whether at work or not (because you could always claim to be on the way to, or on the way home from, a hiring)...

Now who was that listed as possessing a hook and strop?

(snicker)

Dave

ooh a bill hook. Never thought of that. Given that it hooks forwards, the sharpened spine would have to used on the throat, but that's no problem. I'm not sure how you avoid hooking intestines and ripping them up through the wound though. There are sort of any number of size issues. First, it has to be able to cut the throat without having to lift the head in order to cut near the ear, and the intestines were largely intact, so the knife cannot be long enough to cut through them. I think a bill hook would trash the intestines.

But tools of the various trades is an interesting notion. I know there are double edged hoof knives, and that would be readily available. The curved dagger of sailors, maybe even some gardening tools. I'm going to see what I can find.

And bowie knives should probably stay on the list. I have to confess I never heard of Irish soldiers going back, but if it exists in the world, it exists in London, although Civil War bowie knives still tend to be cartoonishly large. And the Confederate ones are short swords, knuckle guard and all. Why would they go to London? I mean, I get the Civil War could make anyone bitter, but they just got here.. and the English didn't like them.

[Cogidubnus]

the sharpened spine would have to used on the throat, but that's no problem. I'm not sure how you avoid hooking intestines and ripping them up through the wound though.

The thing is, they were commonly sharpened all edges around...so there weren't any "rough" or blunt edges...the East India and West India dockmen regularly (and quite ruthlessly) fought each other at hiring time with bill hooks...a couple of days hiring could well mean survival or otherwise at the time...

And this continued into the 20th century - my grandad (a Wapping docker born of Whitechapel parents) went to his grave short of two fingers through a hiring "incident" of this kind...

All the best

Dave

[Beowulf]

The thing is, they were commonly sharpened all edges around...so there weren't any "rough" or blunt edges...the East India and West India dockmen regularly (and quite ruthlessly) fought each other at hiring time with bill hooks...a couple of days hiring could well mean survival or otherwise at the time...

And this continued into the 20th century - my grandad (a Wapping docker born of Whitechapel parents) went to his grave short of two fingers through a hiring "incident" of this kind...

All the best

Dave

How big of a grappling hook? Some are pretty good sized, and some are smaller that I've seen.

It'd have to be sheathed, I would imagine, being that sharp, in order not to cut off any special parts of your own whilst picking out a nice girl to rip into.

Same as with any knife, I've often wondered how he carried his weapon(s) and produced them so quickly to catch the girl offguard. If it were in a sheath, it would take a minute to unsheath it.

He had it down pat, though, whatever he did, but I wonder how?

[Beowulf]

Ooops! I mean, bill hook.

[Hunter]

Yes, I think that the skill levels were quite different. Kate's wounds were, "Possibly the work of an imitator."

Yes, Wynne Baxter said that during his summary at the Stride inquest. Do you believe that statement by him is credible?

[Errata]

The thing is, they were commonly sharpened all edges around...so there weren't any "rough" or blunt edges...the East India and West India dockmen regularly (and quite ruthlessly) fought each other at hiring time with bill hooks...a couple of days hiring could well mean survival or otherwise at the time...

And this continued into the 20th century - my grandad (a Wapping docker born of Whitechapel parents) went to his grave short of two fingers through a hiring "incident" of this kind...

All the best

Dave

It isn't about sharp or dull, but about the mobility of the intestines. I'm trying to think of an analogy that isn't completely disgusting, but I'm failing so I apologize for this. Its like cutting pasta. You can't cut pasta until you press the knife hard against the plate, but even a razor sharp hook can pull the spaghetti up off the plate. It's a resistance thing. The abdominal cuts were made by a stab and pull method, and a hook would catch the intestines, and likely pull them through the cut, no matter which way the hook was facing. The only way to avoid it would be to ensure that the blade never hit the intestines. I know some were shorter than others, but in this case I think you'd need some kind of hilt guard. Did they make bill hook type blades with hilt guards?

[Errata]

I've been looking at various trade knives, and any number of them would work with some adaptations, but leather working knives have a sort of dreadfully fascinating array of blades and configurations that wouldn't need to be altered. I'm sort of morbidly obsessed with the idea of a head knife being used.

[Bridewell]

Head Knife

I've been looking at various trade knives, and any number of them would work with some adaptations, but leather working knives have a sort of dreadfully fascinating array of blades and configurations that wouldn't need to be altered. I'm sort of morbidly obsessed with the idea of a head knife being used.

Hi Errata,

Are you able to post an image of a "head knife" for evaluation?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

Yes, Wynne Baxter said that during his summary at the Stride inquest. Do you believe that statement by him is credible?

Baxter's comment appears to have been influenced by Dr Phillips because Dr FG Brown doesn't appear to make that claim.
Just for the moment I can't see where Phillips put forth that opinion.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

The Inquest records and offline medical expert statements seem to indicate that the man that killed Polly and Annie, if the same person, had to have knowledge of anatomy. And some experience with a knife.

From the Nichols Inquest Summation by Baxter, in no particular order;

"...there are other dreadful injuries in both cases; and those injuries, again, have in each case been performed with anatomical knowledge."

"....in the two recent cases the instruments suggested by the medical witnesses are not so different. Dr. Llewellyn says the injuries on Nicholls could have been produced by a strong bladed instrument, moderately sharp. Dr. Phillips is of opinion that those on Chapman were by a very sharp knife, probably with a thin, narrow blade, at least six to eight inches in length, probably longer. The similarity of the injuries in the two cases is considerable."

"I suggest to you as a possibility that these two women may have been murdered by the same man with the same object, and that in the case of Nicholls the wretch was disturbed before he had accomplished his object."

In the Eddowes Inquest Dr. Sequiera says;

"I think that the murderer had no design on any particular organ of the body. He was not possessed of any great anatomical skill."

Brown states;

"The way in which the kidney was cut out showed that it was done by somebody who knew what he was about,"...."He must have had a good deal of knowledge as to the position of the abdominal organs, and the way to remove them. "

I think what can be concluded from the above is that it is unclear whether the perpetrator of the Eddowes murder had skill equal to that shown by the killer(s) of Polly and Annie, and that no physician associated the "object" (objective) of her murder with either of the 1st 2 Canonicals.

The instruments used could of course seem similar in a postmortem even if different men used slightly different weapons with each victim, so the knife used will not really help us clarify this situation....but the "object" may be a clue as to whether Kate's killer was that same as the 1st 2 women.

How people kill, what they use to kill and whom they kill may well change during a series of murders, but I believe why they kill at all doesnt.

Best regards all,

Mike R

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

Are you able to post an image of a "head knife" for evaluation?

Regards, Bridewell.

Oh I'm positive it wasn't used, but it's one of those knives that you look at and think "Jesus that would be an awful way to die". Kind of like Kris blades, despite the fact that Kris blades make the same wound as any other blade.

I can't link an image without violating rules, but if you google it you will find it. It is a half moon blade with a handle used for scraping hide, and for cutting long strips of leather. They make versions of them to chop vegetables.

They also make any number of horrifying blades and torture devices to chop vegetables. My fiance says it's because vegetables don't scare easy.