What kind of knives were used?

[Archaic]

Hi Hunter.

You made some interesting points and gave us lots to think about.

You and Errata sure are knowledgeable about knives- whereas I'm known for accidentally slicing myself while trying to dice vegetables!

Best regards,
Archaic

[Errata]

Interesting discussion and a good thread.

I will just make a few points from my observations and experiences.

As a sportsman, I have owned and used many types of knives. For years I used various common hunting knives, which had short, stout blades. Their rigidity enabled me to cut through skin, meat and even skeletal joints fairly effectively. It is still the type of knife I carry in the field and on the water, but I started using long filleting knives at home for skinning and paring. Their thinness actually allows me to cut with more precision and maintain a sharp edge longer. The length is really not an impediment as the point is narrow and sharper than any thicker bladed knife.

When looking at the injuries to some of the victims, I see some similarities with the use of a reasonably long, thin and narrow pointed instrument. Annie Chapman's uterus was basically gouged out -- with one sweep of the knife as the Lancet article referred to it. The blade had to be reasonably long and narrow to accomplish this in my opinion. Another clue is the apparent unsuccessful attempt at separating Annie's neck vertebra. Due to the need to pry as well as cut, such a knife is impractical, but nevertheless, the murderer made the attempt without success. If the killer had used a shorter, stouter knife, I believe he would have been able to decapitate her. The fact that he wasn't able to is significant.

Both Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were dispatched with one clean cut. In Eddowes' case, this single cut started superficially behind the left ear and quickly deepened as it was being swept around the throat; even to the point that the vertebra were marked. I can only envision a very sharp, thin and narrow pointed knife being able to accomplish this effectively. I realize that we now have very high grade steel, but some of the manufacturers in Sheffield made some fine quality steel. A good quality, somewhat thin blade, could flex without breaking, and with less ressistance cut deeper quicker.

Just my two cents worth...

When I first started thinking about this,the first thing I thought of was a shorter Fillet knife. Particularly one with an upward curve to the blade. The only reason I discounted it was the jaggedness of the wound in Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes. Quite frankly, if it were a fillet knife, I thought the wounds should have been much cleaner. Also, in my experience fillet knives are flexible enough to not significantly mark bone, and I think in my head I pictured the gouges and cuts on the vertebrae to be pretty severe.

But a kitchen or a hunting blade is far more likely than a weapon blade. The residents of Whitechapel would be unlikely to afford a new blade, and what was prevalent, and therefore much more available to.. acquire would be hunting and kitchen blades. The sticking point for me is that Eddowes' kidney was removed with a double edged blade. And barring alterations to a kitchen knife, that means a dagger. I fully admit I am not nearly as familiar with hunting knives as I am with kitchen or weapon knives. If there are double edged hunting knives out there, that may be the answer.

[Hunter]

I agree with you, Errata.

Some type of home utensil, modified maybe to some degree, may have been used. I don't think a fillet knife. per se, was likely, but looking at the medical evidence I think the instrument was was probably somewhat narrow and with a slender point. The apparent 'sawing motion' evidenced with Chapman may have just been the killer's abortive attempt at decapitating her, while the single clean cuts inflicted upon Stride and Eddowes indicated that the killer in these instances was satisfied with just cutting their throats in the most effective manner.

Of course, we don't know the state of mind of the killer in each instance as that would affect the way the wounds were inflicted as much as the type of weapon used.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

I believe a Bowie style knife covers most of the bases, including the fact it cuts up or down due to the sharpened spine. Most of the doctors spoke of a knife 5-6 inches in length, thats blade length. Couple that with a large ergonomically shaped Handle, from Bolster to Butt maybe 7-8 inches and you have a weapon with a multitude of uses.

I have an extensive knife and bayonet collection dating back to the 1830's and therefore a broad range of blade sizes and features, but I feel in these cases double sided blades would be impractical, but a Bowie style would allow the kind of cuts upward that we see in some cases. Like Kates clothes....and Kate. Generally a heavy knife, and if sharp, little pressure is needed to cut deeply. I have an example from Col. Bowie's time actually.

To errata,

Mary Kelly's arm was almost severed completely, so was her head, and we know that a killer was indeed making torsos of young women that Fall. Which makes "naaahh" seem a little naive.

The idea that the killer carried different instruments, (although the idea is completely unnecessary based on the wounds), brings 2 additional unpleasant ideas to the table. A man with a black bag....once again....or a fetishist. When they are not required, why introduce them?

I believe all that was needed in Kellys room was a single sharp blade, and the will to do the deeds. If you feel you would like to examine victims that have evidence that 2 blades were used, try Martha.

Cheers,

Mike R

[lynn cates]

decapitation

Hello Cris.

"the apparent 'sawing motion' evidenced with Chapman may have just been the killer's abortive attempt at decapitating her"

Could be. Of course, he tried to decapitate manually as well.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Errata,

You make good points I can't disagree with, though I don't feel this is a domestic in the way we would expect it if a recent lover or boyfriend had committed the crime. This guy spent time and truly enjoyed the experience. He was careful not to damage her eyes possibly so that identification would be guaranteed. And he wasn't worried that he'd be suspected. Many serial killers - Ted Bundy comes to mind - are killing someone they know in their mind even as they're killing a stranger. Kelly couldn't have been an amateur job.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

I believe a Bowie style knife covers most of the bases, including the fact it cuts up or down due to the sharpened spine.

Not too long ago we tried to establish precisely what the term "Bowie-knife" was intended to describe. It turns out there is no single design, that there are many different shapes and sizes which all come under the name "Bowie-knife".
I would have thought this was too large, generally speaking.

Dr. Phillips did make one suggestion, that a slaughterman's knife, "well ground down" might suffice. On reading this I picture the common butcher's boning-knife, the type I used in butchering when I was just a lad out of school.
If I recall correctly these blades, though single-sided were about 6" long, and one very thin (well ground down) would fit the bill nicely.


On the other hand I believe there may have been indications that a double-sided blade was used, like a dagger-style, or stiletto-type.

[lynn cates]

boning-knife

Hello Jon.

"On reading this I picture the common butcher's boning-knife . . . "

Splendid. Just the kind described by Mary Isenschmid.

Cheers.
LC

[HelenaWojtczak]

Wow what a great thread this turned out to be! Thanks to all, well done, and keep em coming!

[Beowulf]

Interesting discussion and a good thread.

I will just make a few points from my observations and experiences.

As a sportsman, I have owned and used many types of knives. For years I used various common hunting knives, which had short, stout blades. Their rigidity enabled me to cut through skin, meat and even skeletal joints fairly effectively. It is still the type of knife I carry in the field and on the water, but I started using long filleting knives at home for skinning and paring. Their thinness actually allows me to cut with more precision and maintain a sharp edge longer. The length is really not an impediment as the point is narrow and sharper than any thicker bladed knife.

When looking at the injuries to some of the victims, I see some similarities with the use of a reasonably long, thin and narrow pointed instrument. Annie Chapman's uterus was basically gouged out -- with one sweep of the knife as the Lancet article referred to it. The blade had to be reasonably long and narrow to accomplish this in my opinion. Another clue is the apparent unsuccessful attempt at separating Annie's neck vertebra. Due to the need to pry as well as cut, such a knife is impractical, but nevertheless, the murderer made the attempt without success. If the killer had used a shorter, stouter knife, I believe he would have been able to decapitate her. The fact that he wasn't able to is significant.

Both Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were dispatched with one clean cut. In Eddowes' case, this single cut started superficially behind the left ear and quickly deepened as it was being swept around the throat; even to the point that the vertebra were marked. I can only envision a very sharp, thin and narrow pointed knife being able to accomplish this effectively. I realize that we now have very high grade steel, but some of the manufacturers in Sheffield made some fine quality steel. A good quality, somewhat thin blade, could flex without breaking, and with less ressistance cut deeper quicker.

Just my two cents worth...

I found this site on the net, shows various Victorian knives that fit some of the descriptions discussed here. They are a little different from what we see today, I guess mostly in the materials used for the handles, but I thought it interesting to share:

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?130333-Victorian-knives

Do roll all the way down, there are several pictures. Most interesting to me was this one:

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Beowulf,

Of the pictures you posted only 1 knife resembles the Bowie knife design patented by Col. Bowies brother Resin, the knife on the right in your second post. There is in fact one original design of that style of knife and as youve pointed out many variations on that theme have led one to believe that Bowie knives are a general term.

The original 1835'ish bowie knife, or a picture of its closest facsimile is here:

[Michael W Richards]

As you can see, the blade is considerable thinner than most people imagine a true Bowie knife and the spine is sharpened, not just the tip.

Usually you see flared tips with broad blades and heavy handles. The original as you can see was much more in keeping with the shape many believe could have been used in some Canonical killings.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Errata]

Hi again,

I believe a Bowie style knife covers most of the bases, including the fact it cuts up or down due to the sharpened spine. Most of the doctors spoke of a knife 5-6 inches in length, thats blade length. Couple that with a large ergonomically shaped Handle, from Bolster to Butt maybe 7-8 inches and you have a weapon with a multitude of uses.

I have an extensive knife and bayonet collection dating back to the 1830's and therefore a broad range of blade sizes and features, but I feel in these cases double sided blades would be impractical, but a Bowie style would allow the kind of cuts upward that we see in some cases. Like Kates clothes....and Kate. Generally a heavy knife, and if sharp, little pressure is needed to cut deeply. I have an example from Col. Bowie's time actually.

To errata,

Mary Kelly's arm was almost severed completely, so was her head, and we know that a killer was indeed making torsos of young women that Fall. Which makes "naaahh" seem a little naive.

The idea that the killer carried different instruments, (although the idea is completely unnecessary based on the wounds), brings 2 additional unpleasant ideas to the table. A man with a black bag....once again....or a fetishist. When they are not required, why introduce them?

I believe all that was needed in Kellys room was a single sharp blade, and the will to do the deeds. If you feel you would like to examine victims that have evidence that 2 blades were used, try Martha.

Cheers,

Mike R

Sure, Mary Kelly could have ended up like a torso victim. But I have already said that I don't consider her a victim of Jack the Ripper. Who's knives we were discussing. I assure you my analysis of what happened to Mary Kelly is quite different than my analysis of Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes. But it seemed irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

And all serial killers are fetishistic about something. It's a hallmark of the breed.

As for a Bowie knife, we have discussed it on another thread. And it would be a good solution to the mystery. But we have a timing problem. The whole Wild West aesthetic didn't make it to England until the 1870s. And in fact didn't really catch on until Buffalo Bill's show came to perform for Queen Victoria's Jubilee in 1887. That would be a very very new knife to be in the hands of a Whitechapel resident. Knives were not cheap, and brand spanking new fashionable knives were even more expensive. Now Sheffield had been making the knives since the 1830s or so, but they were all exported to the United States. I have never found a Bowie type knife from England that predates 1890. Sheffield knives from America, sure. But not from England. So while not impossible, there appears to be an availability problem. But as information on the Victorian London knife market is a tad bit difficult to get, I could be wrong. But it's why I ruled it out.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

You make good points I can't disagree with, though I don't feel this is a domestic in the way we would expect it if a recent lover or boyfriend had committed the crime. This guy spent time and truly enjoyed the experience. He was careful not to damage her eyes possibly so that identification would be guaranteed. And he wasn't worried that he'd be suspected. Many serial killers - Ted Bundy comes to mind - are killing someone they know in their mind even as they're killing a stranger. Kelly couldn't have been an amateur job.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

True, but I think this was actually personal. Not so much in a boyfriend kind of way, but in a stalker kind of way. A possessive client, a friend, a neighbor. It's like he thought she was cheating on him, and he eradicated every part of her that sinned against him. He attacked her external sex organs, removed her internal sex organs, excised her breasts, minced her lips, made her "watch" and took her heart with him. Clearly he committed other atrocities to her as well, but those seem like a flashing neon sign saying "spurned lover". And there is a certain amount of planning involved with this. Not just planning the murder, but planning the revenge. I don't think she was "generic faithless woman template" for a murderer to vent his frustration towards another. Those tend to come from chance encounters that are almost immediately acted upon. This took more planning than the average substitution murderer bothers with. I think this is a guy who talked to her, and looked in her eyes and said to himself "You will keep those so you can watch me destroy you". Not dissimilar to the whole "To the pain" shtick from Princess Bride.

[Michael W Richards]

Sure, Mary Kelly could have ended up like a torso victim. But I have already said that I don't consider her a victim of Jack the Ripper. Who's knives we were discussing. I assure you my analysis of what happened to Mary Kelly is quite different than my analysis of Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes. But it seemed irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

And all serial killers are fetishistic about something. It's a hallmark of the breed.

As for a Bowie knife, we have discussed it on another thread. And it would be a good solution to the mystery. But we have a timing problem. The whole Wild West aesthetic didn't make it to England until the 1870s. And in fact didn't really catch on until Buffalo Bill's show came to perform for Queen Victoria's Jubilee in 1887. That would be a very very new knife to be in the hands of a Whitechapel resident. Knives were not cheap, and brand spanking new fashionable knives were even more expensive. Now Sheffield had been making the knives since the 1830s or so, but they were all exported to the United States. I have never found a Bowie type knife from England that predates 1890. Sheffield knives from America, sure. But not from England. So while not impossible, there appears to be an availability problem. But as information on the Victorian London knife market is a tad bit difficult to get, I could be wrong. But it's why I ruled it out.

Hi errata,

You made a couple of interesting comments above. Ive made them bold so I can address them;

I would agree that from what I understand serial killers continue to kill for the same reason they killed once. I would also agree, if this was your intent, that the injuries on other Canonicals speak of someone obsessed with the female abdomen. Cant say with any conviction the murderer of Mary Kelly had that mindset.

Bowie knives more probably came to England in the hands of the many thousands of Irish soldiers after the end of the Civil War in 1865. Boatloads of these men came to England to re-start their lives. The Bowie knife could be found in many iterations around the world by that time. The design had influenced 3 decades of knifemakers to that point.

The Canonical murders have both upward and downward cuts, a sharpened spine is almost a given in those cases. Thats why it fits.

Best regards,

Mike R