How did he do it?

[RedBundy13]

Ma. X and Wick both make very good argueable points in my mind, I wonder is there one case or one victim that everyone is in 100% agreement on? Meaning, this is how it happened, this is how she died and this is who found her.
After just a little thought I realized that the answer to that is no, theres not one. Some say they could have been stangled, some say not. Some people say the victim knew their attacker, others they think not. Ect, ect, ect... Stupid question...

[Wickerman]

but to me, i have to say that she doesn't look like a JTR victim, simply because the knife that he used to kill her in a rage, looks like a pocket knife, with a Bayonet or similar; used to finish her off, now this and the other, are not the knives that JTR uses, because JTR would have killed her in a rage, with the knife that he was going to use to slit her throat..... obviously!

so the M.O/ SIG is quite different, why the hell was a much larger blade used at the end and not earlier on.... most odd, it looks a bit like two killers, with the other bloke getting a bit fed up that she wasn't already dead and thus he stabbed her pretty damned hard, when the other guy had finally stopped.

so you can see why i doubt that she's a JTR victim.

Yes, not an uncommon interpretation, but put yourself in the killer(s) shoes.
Those 38 wounds were not death blows in themselves individually. The depth of those wounds appear to be consistent with a shortbladed knife, as you say, like a penknife or claspknife.

The singular deep and 'broad' wound to the chest, through the breastbone is described as piercing the heart, so undoubtably this was the killing blow, if she was not already dead from strangulation.

I find if difficult to imagine a woman alive and being stabbed with a shortblade which, due to her large build means the weapon is not long enough to cause immediate mortal wounds. In other words Tabram is alive through most of those numerous stabbings (unlikely).

Unless, she is already dead from strangulation, or, after being rendered unconscious by strangulation the killer then stabs her in the heart with a dagger. Then proceeds to puncture her corpse 38 more times targetting specific organ locations with another knife in a frenzy.

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

That very well might be, Malcolm. But then again. like you said it might not. I suppose since this site is split about 50% believing Martha was a Ripper victim and the other 50 think not. This arguement could go on forever... Unless you guys who dont believe, would just agree with me that she was, then this would all be over. haha

hi RED

your enthusiasm is infectious

well, it could be either couldn't it, because after this JTR had quite a fixated M.O, as well as his Sig, but his Sig wasn't really present with regards to Stride and MJK requires different tactics anyway, so that's different.

even so Stride looks far more like JTR than Tabram, dont forget that we are talking about loads of stab wounds, that are also carelessly delivered, he has not `even` targeted her for a quick kill via stab wounds, because, even an inexperienced killer will know which areas to stab for a quick kill.

so what's going on here for this to be JTR ? he maybe failed to strangle/ overpower her first, she thus fought back, he panicked and flew into a rage due to fearing that someone might hear them.

because what can this be in the future; other than an attempted murder that's going drastically wrong, from an eyewitness that saw and spoke to him, therefore JTR can not run off, he has to kill her, simply because this isn't a woman that said no, leaving him free and innocent to walk off, instead he started to kill her, but she survived, to tell the police and I.D him later on!

JTR might have thought ``oh hell, i've messed this up, she's fighting me off, i have to kill her``.....Panic.....Rage.

but to me, i have to say that she doesn't look like a JTR victim, simply because the knife that he used to kill her in a rage, looks like a pocket knife, with a Bayonet or similar; used to finish her off, now this and the other, are not the knives that JTR uses, because JTR would have killed her in a rage, with the knife that he was going to use to slit her throat..... obviously!

so the M.O/ SIG is quite different, why the hell was a much larger blade used at the end and not earlier on.... most odd, it looks a bit like two killers, with the other bloke getting a bit fed up that she wasn't already dead and thus he stabbed her pretty damned hard, when the other guy had finally stopped.

so you can see why i doubt that she's a JTR victim.

[lynn cates]

higher

Hello Red. I think the latest poll numbers were a bit higher for Martha's being included--something like over 60%.

Ever since Sugden's book came out, Martha's "case" has received new support.

Cheers.
LC

[RedBundy13]

JK

That very well might be, Malcolm. But then again. like you said it might not. I suppose since this site is split about 50% believing Martha was a Ripper victim and the other 50 think not. This arguement could go on forever... Unless you guys who dont believe, would just agree with me that she was, then this would all be over. haha

[Malcolm X]

In my opinion, for whatever it's worth, how a person uses a knife is fairly individual, akin to handwriting. Not necessarily in that it is truly individualized (though it may be) but in that no matter how rushed you are, what your mood is, no matter how conditions change it will always retain the basics of your handwriting. If you don't dot I s then you don't. If you slant to the left, then you slant to the left.

The killer of Tabram used his knife in a very different way from the killer of Eddowes. Even from the killer of Nichols. If it were the same killer, the same kind of punching stab wounds should persist through all the victims, no matter what else was done. More to the point really, anyone who used such punching stabs should not have had any problems opening the abdomen, which Jack clearly did. Essentially it is the difference between using an awl and using a filet knife. If you are used to an awl, you will use a filet knife like an awl and vice versa. Point oriented knife skills do not translate to edge oriented ones, and strength oriented skills do not translate to precision ones.

So you know, don't ask a harpooner to take out your appendix.

yes well posted.

no JTR did not kill the others in a rage, please look at the evidence more closely, there is a huge difference in an attack being due to a sudden violent rage, than another that reveals just enough violence/ physical effort to subdue his victim.

to kill his victims, obviously JTR will always have to use force first, but what you never see is overkill.

everything else you see is post- mortem and no more bloody than an Autopsy.... but instead, it's seriously disturbing.

JTR in a rage yes.... but if not; it's not him. first murder ? maybe, but if so he used totally the wrong weapon as well, so he's messed up on many levels.

the other murders look too fixed for this one to be his, but it might be i suppose

[RedBundy13]

Malcolm X has a point

This is in response to Ma.X's post that the only way he'd accept her as a Ripper victim is if A. He was in a rage. B. He was drunk. Or C. He was very inexperienced. I dont know if Ma. X was serious when he said that but the more ive been thinking about it the more sense its been making to me.
If she really was a Ripper victim she would have been the first or right close to it. So that being said, that would make him very inexperienced.
Now what does someone do to calm his nerves when that person is anticipating something coming up that could possibly lead to his arrest and eventually to the gallows. He'd most likely drink right? To calm his nerves.
So drinking and being drunk makes sense to me.
And finally on to the rage. In my opinion it goes without saying, he seemed to be in a rage on all his victims. He was taking out all his aggression it seemed, on all those women.
I dont know if you really meant what you said Malcolm, but it makes perfect sense to me.

[Errata]

In my opinion, for whatever it's worth, how a person uses a knife is fairly individual, akin to handwriting. Not necessarily in that it is truly individualized (though it may be) but in that no matter how rushed you are, what your mood is, no matter how conditions change it will always retain the basics of your handwriting. If you don't dot I s then you don't. If you slant to the left, then you slant to the left.

The killer of Tabram used his knife in a very different way from the killer of Eddowes. Even from the killer of Nichols. If it were the same killer, the same kind of punching stab wounds should persist through all the victims, no matter what else was done. More to the point really, anyone who used such punching stabs should not have had any problems opening the abdomen, which Jack clearly did. Essentially it is the difference between using an awl and using a filet knife. If you are used to an awl, you will use a filet knife like an awl and vice versa. Point oriented knife skills do not translate to edge oriented ones, and strength oriented skills do not translate to precision ones.

So you know, don't ask a harpooner to take out your appendix.

[Malcolm X]

my post is a bit too heavy handed i suppose, but you know what i mean, oh yes i know that back then she was a ripper suspect for sure, but it just doesn't look right.

if you made another movie about him, you would show him chatting her up, getting close and then targeting her throat... in some way, either choaking/ strangling her first, or cutting her throat afterwards/ at the same time... because i think this varies, the important point is that he targets the throat, cuts it, lays her down and watches her drain out.

he is then either disturbed, carries on and guts her, or later on; toys with her face first.....

in contrast, the killer of Tabram has stabbed her to death whilst she's standing up, fighting back etc etc, whatever, you have to admit that this is not like JTR, at all, he has mauled her in a rage.

in fact, for any killer it looks like a rage, so i suppose i can accept JTR but only if he has lost his temper.

he might have lost his temper if he failed to strangle her first.... wasn't strong enough, or she landed a few good punches on him.. yes maybe.

but for JTR as normal... no way i wont budge an inch !

[DVV]

i dont care

Neither do I, Malcolm.

get real

"Médecin, soigne-toi toi-même".

only Coles/ mackenzie look like JTR

Good Lord, Coles rather looks like a Saddler victim.

look at her injuries again, because this looks more like Sutcliffe

Shall I tell you ? You've close the case.

[Malcolm X]

i dont care, Tabram is nothing like a Ripper victim, she was killed in a similar location and it was quiet too/ undetected.

sorry, but where do you expect her to be found to be another killer... on top of St Paul's, plus also, do you expect her killer to attack her out in the open and in front of everyone, before you say... look that's not JTR.

get real, any killer will behave like JTR before committing a street murder like this, but the difference is, someone else will kill in a different way, and that is what you have with Tabram, she is nothing like a JTR victim..... she looks like someone else.... the Signature of the crime is different

only Coles/ mackenzie look like JTR and you say the police ! they're pretty useless i'm afraid.

look at her injuries again, because this looks more like a Sutcliffe or similar, rather than somebody that takes care to subdue the victim first, or targets the throat first etc..... i shouldn't have to explain what i mean, it's pretty obvious.

i will only accept this as JTR, if he was in a rage/drunk or very inexperienced, but if not, this is not from JTR in his normal mood.... no way !

finally and far lesser, just look at the weapon used!

this is no more like JTR than the Torsos, or ``Old Shakespear``

[RedBundy13]

And no witnesses(he was able to do it silently)

[DVV]

Exactly so. And you can add the position of the body.

[RedBundy13]

In Tabrams case imo, its harder to prove she wasnt a Ripper victim than was. The simplest explanation is always the best and this is 'almost' a perfect case to prove that. i.e. time of murder, date of murder, weapon used, vagina targeted, victims occupation, victims age and class, motive(or lack of-robbery doesnt seem likely-), location of murder, ect, ect... There are many more examples. If it walks like a duck, talks like duck... Its a duck.

[DVV]

Hi Tom

As proof that the police as a whole had removed Tabram from the Ripper's tally as early as the double event, here's the Met police notice from Sept. 30th.

Police Notice. - To the occupier. - On the mornings of Friday, 31st August, Saturday, 8th, and Sunday, 30th Sept., 1888, women were murdered in Whitechapel, it is supposed by someone residing in the immediate neighbourhood. Should you know of any person to whom suspicion is attached, you are earnestly requested to communicate at once with the nearest police-station. - Metropolitan Police Office, 30th Sept., 1888

Tabram and Smith (considered killed by the same gang) were taken from the list.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

That is just another early sign of the canon, but certainly not a proof that the police "as awhole" dismissed Smith and Tabram. They simply listed the murders that were both recent and undispubly committed by the same hand. Since no other witness than Pearly Poll and Barrett could be found in August in spite of their endeavours, and since it was too late to get more clues about Smith's murder, their addition to the list would just have been useless, or worse, confusing.