How did he do it?

[lynn cates]

good idea

Hello Frank.

"Or someone who hadn't gone even out with murder on his mind to begin with?"

A very good idea, in my opinion.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Very well. But this is at loggerheads with the concept so many have of this chap. He is supposed proficient and taunting, not a timid bungler.

Cheers.
LC

Oh, ..like Custer being the last man standing, yes, we must uphold the paradigm, sorry 'bout that...


Regards, Jon S.

[FrankO]

A novice Lynn?

Or someone who hadn't gone even out with murder on his mind to begin with?

[FrankO]

oops sorry **** up..... my mistake

No worries, Malcolm!

There seems to be very little in the official documents about Tabram’s wounds. In fact, I have only been able to find one reference to the stabs in her throat in a summary report by Swanson dated September 1888:
“Dr.Keeling [sic] of 68 Brick Lane was called, and examined the body and found thirty nine wounds on body, and neck, and private part with a knife or dagger.”

This quote supports Dr. Killeen’s inquest statement, as covered by a number newspapers on at least 10 and 11 August, such as the Evening News of 10 August:
“Dr. Kaleene stated that he was called to the deceased and found her dead. He examined the body and found 39 punctured wounds on the body and legs. There were no less than nine in the throat and 17 in the breast. She appeared to have been dead about three hours. The body was well nourished. He had since made a post-mortem examination, and found the left lung penetrated in five places, and the right lung in two places. The heart had been penetrated, but only in one place. Otherwise it was quite healthy. The liver was healthy but penetrated in five places, and the spleen was penetrated in two places. The stomach was healthy but penetrated in six places. In witness's opinion the wounds were not inflicted with the same instrument, there being a deep wound in the breast from some long, strong instrument, while most of the others were done apparently by a penknife. The large wound could be caused by a sword-bayonet or dagger. It was impossible for the whole of the wounds to be self-inflicted. Death was due to loss of blood consequent on the injuries.”

All the best,
Frank

[lynn cates]

Jack the meek

Hello Jon. Very well. But this is at loggerheads with the concept so many have of this chap. He is supposed proficient and taunting, not a timid bungler.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

.....And what kind of a "serial killer" carries a penknife and uses it to despatch his prey?

A novice Lynn?
Someone who is insecure, lacks confidence, who chooses to carry the type of pocket knife found in every man's pocket.
He stumbled through the Millwood attack, then the assault on Wilson, neither of them a success. Perhaps the Tabram murder shows the transition from clasp-knife to fixed blade weapon?

I've never been convinced Tabram was a Ripper victim, but if as described above then I suppose it is possible.

Regards, Jon S.

[curious4]

How did he?

Hello all,

If you count Annie Millwood, Ada Wilson, Emma Smith and Martha Tabram as early "practice" victims, you can perhaps conclude that whoever attacked them was getting more and more comfortable with the stabbings - in fact, enjoyed stabbing, perhaps why Martha Tabram received so many wounds and then decided that an easier way to get busy with his knife was to subdue and then kill them first.

Best wishes,
C4

P.S. In the case of Mary Jane Kelly I think her "guest" was to stay overnight - "you will be comfortable, my dear" and as she was according to the doctor`s report lying originally on the right side of the bed nearest the wall and was then moved over to the other side for the "operations", the conclusion is that she had originally had someone lying beside her - and possibly woke up to see Jack with his knife and pulled the sheet over her head in panic (there were indications on the sheet that she had done so.

"Read not to contradict and refute, nor to believe and take for granted, nor to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider" Lord Bacon

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. And what kind of a "serial killer" carries a penknife and uses it to despatch his prey?

Cheers.
LC

probably the same idiot that got lazy yesterday and didn't check his facts properly

Penknife ! yes i was wondering this too, whatever mistake i made, this killer still doesn't look like JTR does he. he also doesn't look like someone that knows much about knives, unless of course this penknife was in fact a razor sharp Clasp knife... 3'' blade, because this would kill easily, if so then he knows his stuff.

do all these stab wounds disguise a poor pen knife that aint working for him, or was this a lethal weapon used in a blind rage instead, the reason i say this is that her heart/ liver/ lungs were punctured, now any one of these wounds will kill you...

yes, now this is interesting, this looks like someone that is in a very bad rage indeed, neck stabbed 9 times... flipping heck !

but slitting her throat like JTR can still be done by him if he's in a blind rage, so why not !!!!!!!!!!!!!..... it's not JTR, yes maybe because this looks like a row first, face to face and then an explosion of anger resulting in a full frontal assult.

because if you were in a blind rage, you are far more likely to strike out with your knife, at another human standing in front of you, with no control over your actions at all, you might not even be able to see the person very well, just flip into crazy mode.

so why we have a different weapon used as well is beyond me...... not sure

[lynn cates]

serial killers

Hello Malcolm. And what kind of a "serial killer" carries a penknife and uses it to despatch his prey?

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Seeing that 9 out of 39 knife wounds were in Tabram's throat, I wouldn't say that her throat wasn't touched, Malcolm. In fact, that may well have been because her killer, whoever he was, literally wanted to shut her up by stabbing her throat so many times.

All the best,
Frank

oops sorry **** up..... my mistake

The post-mortem examination of Martha Tabram was held by Dr. Timothy Killeen (also spelled Keeling or Keleene) at 5:30 AM on the morning of August 7th. Tabram was described as a plump middle-aged woman, about 5'3" tall, dark hair and complexion. The time of death was estimated at about three hours before the examination (around 2:30-2:45 AM). In all, there were thirty-nine stab wounds including:

5 wounds (left lung)
2 wounds (right lung)
1 wound (heart)
5 wounds (liver)
2 wounds (spleen)
6 wounds (stomach)

Martha Tabram's death certificate.According to Killeen, the focus of the wounds were the breasts, belly, and groin area. In his opinion, all but one of the wounds were inflicted by a right-handed attacker, and all but one seemed to have been the result of an "ordinary pen-knife." There was, however, one wound on the sternum which appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet (thereby leading police to believe that a sailor was the perpetrator).

but in my defence:- no mention of throat wounds above, which really does piss me off

[DVV]

Hi Malcolm

it looks like a drunk soldier

I have no idea what a drunk soldier's murder looks like.

who has a bayonet as well

Ah, that good old bayonet, Killeen's masterpiece. Forensic science owes him so much.

[FrankO]

...more importantly, her throat wasn't touched, by blade or hand and this definitely isn't the way JTR likes to kill.

Seeing that 9 out of 39 knife wounds were in Tabram's throat, I wouldn't say that her throat wasn't touched, Malcolm. In fact, that may well have been because her killer, whoever he was, literally wanted to shut her up by stabbing her throat so many times.

All the best,
Frank

[Malcolm X]

What is wrong with the MO, Malcolm ?
Bank Holiday, Whitechapel, a drunken prostitute who solicited and was murdered by knife, vagina area targeted, body found legs apart, no weapon left on the scene, no clues, possible signs of suffocation.

its not enough to rule out another killer, plus the target area was more evenly spread out, rather than focused upon the Vagina, more importantly, her throat wasn't touched, by blade or hand and this definitely isn't the way JTR likes to kill.

secondly, this late at night and on her own/ weekend, it's highly likely that the woman will be a semi- drunk prostitute anyway, so i dont think this counts at all.

JTR yes, but only if he's in a rage and inexperienced too, other than this it looks like a drunk soldier; who has a bayonet as well

[DVV]

What is wrong with the MO, Malcolm ?
Bank Holiday, Whitechapel, a drunken prostitute who solicited and was murdered by knife, vagina area targeted, body found legs apart, no weapon left on the scene, no clues, possible signs of suffocation.

[Malcolm X]

Ma. X and Wick both make very good argueable points in my mind, I wonder is there one case or one victim that everyone is in 100% agreement on? Meaning, this is how it happened, this is how she died and this is who found her.
After just a little thought I realized that the answer to that is no, theres not one. Some say they could have been stangled, some say not. Some people say the victim knew their attacker, others they think not. Ect, ect, ect... Stupid question...

yes, welcome to this forum because that's what it's like here, to me the most obvious murders are Eddowes and A. Chapman.

with Tabram it doesn't matter if she was unconscious first/ down on the ground fighting etc, it's the M.O and Signature that's wrong.

i think JTR as a total novice would have worked out that the weakest area to target first is the throat, even a young child knows this, the throat and the eyes!

he didn't, he targeted the thorax and Abdoman, this looks like a drunken soldier/ sailor