How did JtR see in the dark?

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=packers stem;n711306]

couldn't be left in situ as it may have implicated people when found and placing a body in the street helps speed of finding , terror and most of all news of the event.

I don’t understand why you mean by implicating people unless you are suggesting that the locations were somehow significant?

If placing a body in the street helps speed of finding how does placing one in a back yard help toward that end?

.
Easily , depends on distance .
And far less chance of being seen than spending 15 minutes in the back yard of 29

Far from easy I’d have thought PS. If the killer(s) felt the need to move the body it seems logical to suggest that they wouldn’t have bothered moving it for the sake of a few feet so this implies that they had a reason to move it some distance. From your previous post you appear to discount a carriage but you might be suggesting something like a cart? If so none were seen. Would they have parked it directly outside number 29 or some distance away? This was at a time when people were out and about. Would anyone really expect to avoid being seen carrying a corpse? To put it mildly this seems unlikely in the extreme.

.
Yes , at least and sh*t loads if you don't close your eyes to it .

It appears that almost everyone has closed their eyes to it then. I see absolutely no evidence for this unless you employ conspiracy theorist thinking where everything is possible.

. Not at all .Legs and wrists were free from blood

So the corpse is being carried holding the wrists and feet? This seems a bit strange. Skirts dragging on the floor? I’d have thought that a more likely method would have been with one person placing his hands under the arms. This puts the hands and arms in bloodied areas and the head resting against the body of one person.

Then there would have been the serious risk of leaving a trail of dripping blood.

It seems pretty obvious that these women were killed where they were found. Being transported makes no sense.

[packers stem]

[QUOTE=Herlock Sholmes;n711312]

I don’t understand why you mean by implicating people unless you are suggesting that the locations were somehow significant?

If placing a body in the street helps speed of finding how does placing one in a back yard help toward that end?



Far from easy I’d have thought PS. If the killer(s) felt the need to move the body it seems logical to suggest that they wouldn’t have bothered moving it for the sake of a few feet so this implies that they had a reason to move it some distance. From your previous post you appear to discount a carriage but you might be suggesting something like a cart? If so none were seen. Would they have parked it directly outside number 29 or some distance away? This was at a time when people were out and about. Would anyone really expect to avoid being seen carrying a corpse? To put it mildly this seems unlikely in the extreme.



It appears that almost everyone has closed their eyes to it then. I see absolutely no evidence for this unless you employ conspiracy theorist thinking where everything is possible.



So the corpse is being carried holding the wrists and feet? This seems a bit strange. Skirts dragging on the floor? I’d have thought that a more likely method would have been with one person placing his hands under the arms. This puts the hands and arms in bloodied areas and the head resting against the body of one person.

Then there would have been the serious risk of leaving a trail of dripping blood.

It seems pretty obvious that these women were killed where they were found. Being transported makes no sense.

Neither carriage nor cart .
although having said that , to suggest none were seen is quite ludicrous .They were everywhere , they were just ignored.
Maybe the back yard in the case of Hanbury Street was more accessible because of the light and risk of being seen .....
So now , you should have enough to work it out

[packers stem]

....and just a few feet , or rather yards , makes complete sense once you realise

[Harry D]

To quote the movie Blade: "Some motherf***ers are always trying to ice skate uphill"

Everything points to Annie Chapman being killed where she lay. What does arguing that she was dumped achieve other than contorting all logic and reason to fit your own personal theory?

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=packers stem;n711355]

. Neither carriage nor cart .
although having said that , to suggest none were seen is quite ludicrous.

Why the mystery? Are you simply suggesting that the ‘rippers’ carried a corpse along the street, with people going about their business, completely unseen? Harry just quoted Blade, I’ll quote John McEnroe “you cannot be serious?!”

I don’t see why no one noticing a cart is ludicrous unless you are making the ludicrous suggestion that the rippers left it two streets away?

. .They were everywhere , they were just ignored.

If a cart was parked outside or very near to number 29, and there wasn’t usually one there, wouldn’t the police have been interested? Especially if the same was noticed at other murder sites.

Maybe the back yard in the case of Hanbury Street was more accessible because of the light and risk of being seen .....
So now , you should have enough to work it out

Or maybe it’s simply ludicrous to suggest two men carrying a corpse first in the street and then into an occupied house to dump a body in a yard. Why not simply drive down a deserted street and just chuck the body out?

Unless of course you’re heading into deep conspiracy territory and that the locations were in some way significant to bunch of black magic practicing Illuminati shape shifters? There’s enough mystery in the case without unnecessarily piling on more.

[Joshua Rogan]

If someone threw a body to the ground with a virtually severed head i would not find 6 tiny dots of blood out of the ordinary .

The body didn't just have a virtually severed head, but also had the intestines pulled out and draped across the shoulder, another organ removed entirely, and chunks of abdominal flesh cut away and placed nearby. Was this all done before the body was brought to the yard?

[Busy Beaver]

Jack must have been the right side of forty. As you get older, your eye sight starts diminishing and in Victorian London, doing what Jack did required almost near perfect vision, I would think. There does not seem to be any mention by anyone reporting the deaths in relation to the Ripper's eye sight ie- he must have been blind to have cut this, or it looked as if he could not see what he was doing. Yes the light might not have been good, but Jack's eye's were pretty good- up there with a Rabbit and a Cat. If you take some of the witnesses, they were mid forties and their eye sight might be ok, but probably not as good as a twenty something year old, and may have had problems with seeing distances, which is why we have got hazy descriptions of the Ripper. He may have been a healthy chap- he could murder in the dark and hear when someone was approaching to know when to flee.

[Sleuth1888]

Moonlight. Jacky saw the world with the light of Luna.

[Sam Flynn]

Moonlight. Jacky saw the world with the light of Luna.

The only time that would have worked was for Polly Nichols, where a 41% moon was above the horizon. In all other cases, the moon was either a thin crescent, very low on the horizon and/or obscured by cloud. In Kelly's case, the moon was in the Southern Hemisphere, and wouldn't rise in England until well after her death. See my post earlier in this thread for more details and a graphic:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/motive-method-and-madness/11403-how-did-jtr-see-in-the-dark?p=639697#post639697

[Sleuth1888]

The only time that would have worked was for Polly Nichols, where a 41% moon was above the horizon. In all other cases, the moon was either a thin crescent, very low on the horizon and/or obscured by cloud. In Kelly's case, the moon was in the Southern Hemisphere, and wouldn't rise in England until well after her death. See my post earlier in this thread for more details and a graphic:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...697#post639697

Well in Kelly's case she was killed indoors and a poweful fire occurred at some stage.

[Sam Flynn]

Well in Kelly's case she was killed indoors and a poweful fire occurred at some stage.

Oh, indeed. The fact that the moon wasn't visible was entirely academic in Kelly's case, but I include the data for completeness.

[packers stem]

The body didn't just have a virtually severed head, but also had the intestines pulled out and draped across the shoulder, another organ removed entirely, and chunks of abdominal flesh cut away and placed nearby. Was this all done before the body was brought to the yard?

Inspector Chandler

The jacket was hooked at the top, and buttoned down the front. By the appearance of the garment there did not seem to have been any struggle.

Suggests that the jacket was buttoned up with a part of the intestine coming out at the top on to the shoulder .

[packers stem]

[QUOTE=Herlock Sholmes;n711372]

If a cart was parked outside or very near to number 29, and there wasn’t usually one there, wouldn’t the police have been interested? Especially if the same was noticed at other murder sites.



Or maybe it’s simply ludicrous to suggest two men carrying a corpse first in the street and then into an occupied house to dump a body in a yard. Why not simply drive down a deserted street and just chuck the body out?

Unless of course you’re heading into deep conspiracy territory and that the locations were in some way significant to bunch of black magic practicing Illuminati shape shifters? There’s enough mystery in the case without unnecessarily piling on more.

This may come as a surprise but carts and carriages were commonplace then ....not the sort of thing to make a mental note of .When walking down a street now who makes a mental note of parked cars unless there's a specific issue with it ?
Hence the 'ludicrous'

No , I doubt there's anything specific about that particular location

[Herlock Sholmes]

[QUOTE=packers stem;n711919]

This may come as a surprise but carts and carriages were commonplace then ....not the sort of thing to make a mental note of .When walking down a street now who makes a mental note of parked cars unless there's a specific issue with it ?
Hence the 'ludicrous'

No , I doubt there's anything specific about that particular location

I’m perfectly willing to concede a point if someone gives me good reason to but I have to ask, were carriages really commonplace in that area? I can understand carts but surely carriages were only used/owned by the better off? So why would they be commonplace in a slum?

Certainly carts would have been a common sight but I’d suggest that it wouldn’t have been like today with cars where it’s a common sight to see a street lined with them? So if there was only one cart in any particular street it’s not impossible that someone might have noticed it especially if that person walked along that street at the same time every day and had never seen a cart there before. That person might even have been familiar with the owner of the property that the cart was parked outside of and if that person didn’t own a cart it might have stuck in his mind. I’m just saying that it would have been an added risk.

What is ludicrous though is the idea of two people carrying a corpse from a cart along any length of street through an indoor passageway and into a backyard. This simply cannot be taken seriously. We have to work too hard to arrive at this kind of conspiracy. Jack the Ripper was a serial killer. The similarities of the crimes, the type of victims, the small area, the short time period all point us in this direction. If the police were investigating the case today do we really think that they’d say - this was an obvious plot were two or more men killed prostitutes for reasons unknown and then transported them to the locations where they were found? Come on.

[packers stem]

[QUOTE=Herlock Sholmes;n711921]

I’m perfectly willing to concede a point if someone gives me good reason to but I have to ask, were carriages really commonplace in that area? I can understand carts but surely carriages were only used/owned by the better off? So why would they be commonplace in a slum?

Certainly carts would have been a common sight but I’d suggest that it wouldn’t have been like today with cars where it’s a common sight to see a street lined with them? So if there was only one cart in any particular street it’s not impossible that someone might have noticed it especially if that person walked along that street at the same time every day and had never seen a cart there before. That person might even have been familiar with the owner of the property that the cart was parked outside of and if that person didn’t own a cart it might have stuck in his mind. I’m just saying that it would have been an added risk.

What is ludicrous though is the idea of two people carrying a corpse from a cart along any length of street through an indoor passageway and into a backyard. This simply cannot be taken seriously. We have to work too hard to arrive at this kind of conspiracy. Jack the Ripper was a serial killer. The similarities of the crimes, the type of victims, the small area, the short time period all point us in this direction. If the police were investigating the case today do we really think that they’d say - this was an obvious plot were two or more men killed prostitutes for reasons unknown and then transported them to the locations where they were found? Come on.

What makes you think anybody appeared on a cart and walked any sort of length down the street ?