How did JtR see in the dark?

[Ginger]

Any reasonable person would conclude from the records that the thud and soft cry at around 5:20 was almost certainly Annie and her killer, and the blood stains on the fence confirm that it was the spot where her throat was cut. Considering the killer took the extra step of removing flaps from her abdomen, its easy to see why she cooled more rapidly than the contemporary physicians estimates. If her mutilations started shortly after the thud I don't see any obstacles with her discovery time, but obviously with Mrs Longs sighting.

That Annie was murdered where she was found seems an inescapable conclusion to me. I'll certainly agree that it's most plausible that Cadosh overheard the murder. I'm not even a particularly reasonable person, but that still seems likeliest to me. If there's a way to logically prove that she wasn't killed earlier, though, I have yet to hear it.

Mrs. Long was obviously mistaken, either about the time, or about who she saw.

[packers stem]

Exactly Michael, unless Sickert cleverly flicked some blood onto the fence to make it look that way.

It was a 'smear' on the fence .
precisely what you would get by throwing an already blood drenched body to the ground

[packers stem]

I've not read this whole thread yet but people please , let's get serious regarding ambient lighting .
it's been put to me a couple of times over recent weeks and seems to be the new 'in thing' whilst attempting to convince yourselves of sufficient lighting .
Cities now do have light pollution .... there was absolutely nothing back then to cause the phenomena .
No neon signs , high rise blocks with lights , electric street lights .
it is delusional and ridiculously speculative in the extreme .
We're talking poor gas lamps used as markers and candles ... No light pollution I'm afraid .
Any available light was down to moonlight.
On the night of the double event , we know it was raining on and off all night hence cloud cover and it wasn't near a full moon .
lighting was minimal

[Sam Flynn]

It was a 'smear' on the fence

It is described as a smear, but the blood wasn't confined to the fence: "There were also a few spots of blood on the back wall at the head of the body and some 2ft. or 3ft. from the ground. The largest spot was about the size of a six-penny piece." (The Times and other sources.) Also: "There were no drops of blood in the passage or outside, and the bloodstains were only found in the immediate neighbourhood of the body." (Ibid.) If the body was already drenched and dripping with blood, it would certainly have been found in the passage or even on the pavement/road outside 29 Hanbury Street. Given the extent of the injuries, there'd have been plenty of it, too.

[packers stem]

It is described as a smear, but the blood wasn't confined to the fence: "There were also a few spots of blood on the back wall at the head of the body and some 2ft. or 3ft. from the ground. The largest spot was about the size of a six-penny piece." (The Times and other sources.) Also: "There were no drops of blood in the passage or outside, and the bloodstains were only found in the immediate neighbourhood of the body." (Ibid.) If the body was already drenched and dripping with blood, it would certainly have been found in the passage or even on the pavement/road outside 29 Hanbury Street. Given the extent of the injuries, there'd have been plenty of it, too.

Perfectly aware of the six dots Gareth .
How 'drenched' clothing would be at any possible point of being carried out would be an unknown and and precisely how porous Chapman's clothing may be is also unknown .Therefore to suggest there would 'certainly' be signs of blood elsewhere is guesswork ...
If someone threw a body to the ground with a virtually severed head i would not find 6 tiny dots of blood out of the ordinary .

[Sam Flynn]

Therefore to suggest there would 'certainly' be signs of blood elsewhere is guesswork ...

Her head was almost hanging off, with the vessels on both sides of the throat deeply severed, so it's a reasonable bit of guesswork, I'd say.

If someone threw a body to the ground with a virtually severed head i would not find 6 tiny dots of blood out of the ordinary .

Yet carrying a body with a virtually severed head out to the back yard would leave no traces of blood anywhere else? Not outside, not in the passage, not on the steps?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I try to be open to different ideas but I just think it’s several bridges to far too far to believe that carriage pulled up outside of 29 Hanbury Street which no one saw. Then two men carried a mutilated corpse into the backyard escaping unseen! It’s a ludicrous fantasy. Even if Chapman was killed elsewhere why not just dump her body somewhere in seclusion. This is palpable nonsense.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It was a 'smear' on the fence .
precisely what you would get by throwing an already blood drenched body to the ground

Or if someone covered in blood like the killer or the victim rubbed against the fence.

[packers stem]

Her head was almost hanging off, with the vessels on both sides of the throat deeply severed, so it's a reasonable bit of guesswork, I'd say

Still speculation , not a certainty..... there's a world of difference .

.Her carrying a body with a virtually severed head out to the back yard would leave no traces of blood anywhere else? Not outside, not in the passage, not on the steps?

Wet a dishcloth and it may not drip on it's own before saturation point .
You throw it against a hard surface and splashes will come from it

[Sam Flynn]

Or if someone covered in blood like the killer or the victim rubbed against the fence.

As when Cadosch thought he heard something fall against the fence a few minutes after hearing a cry of "No!", perhaps.

[packers stem]

I try to be open to different ideas but I just think it’s several bridges to far too far to believe that carriage pulled up outside of 29 Hanbury Street which no one saw. Then two men carried a mutilated corpse into the backyard escaping unseen! It’s a ludicrous fantasy. Even if Chapman was killed elsewhere why not just dump her body somewhere in seclusion. This is palpable nonsense.

People are obsessed by carriages .
Who said anything about carriages ?

[Sam Flynn]

People are obsessed by carriages .
Who said anything about carriages ?

What's the alternative? Should we be looking for two men seen carrying a roll of carpet?

[Herlock Sholmes]

People are obsessed by carriages .
Who said anything about carriages ?

The initial discussion was prompted by someone proposing Knight’s theory in which carriages were used.

So many questions - Why would a killer feel the need to place the body elsewhere rather than where she was killed? How could he have transported a mutilated corpse without being seen? - Doesn’t this rely on two killers and so what evidence is there for any kind of conspiracy? - Wouldn’t carrying a mutilated corpse have increased the likelihood of the killer being covered in blood and therefore drawing attention to himself? - As Sam has said, how else could a body be transported safely?

[Herlock Sholmes]

What's the alternative? Should we be looking for two men seen carrying a roll of carpet?

Couldn’t help thinking of this one Sam

https://youtu.be/Iv0ibFHnvg4

[packers stem]

The initial discussion was prompted by someone proposing Knight’s theory in which carriages were used.

So many questions - Why would a killer feel the need to place the body elsewhere rather than where she was killed? How could he have transported a mutilated corpse without being seen? - Doesn’t this rely on two killers and so what evidence is there for any kind of conspiracy? - Wouldn’t carrying a mutilated corpse have increased the likelihood of the killer being covered in blood and therefore drawing attention to himself? - As Sam has said, how else could a body be transported safely?

Forgive me , I can't be bothered with the quote /unquote malarchy with that many questions lol

couldn't be left in situ as it may have implicated people when found and placing a body in the street helps speed of finding , terror and most of all news of the event.

Easily , depends on distance .
And far less chance of being seen than spending 15 minutes in the back yard of 29

Yes , at least and sh*t loads if you don't close your eyes to it .

Not at all .Legs and wrists were free from blood