Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection.

[MrBarnett]

Where did you get this from?

Tabram had clothes covering her sexual parts either ripped off or displaced.

I don't mind people trying to quantum tunnel the minutia if it gets somewhere, but it doesn't take away from the fact he exposed her private areas so he could stab at them as a Lust murderer does.

No difference between a Lust murder and Tabram's murder.

Tabram had the clothes coveting most of her front torso disturbed.

You seem not to want to address why your 'lust murder' concentrated 6 x more on her stomach than her 'lower part'.

[Batman]

The mouth and lips have been culturally sexualised, but nobody calls them "upper sex organs", do they? It would help if you stuck to the facts and stopped using such over-generalised, and imprecise, wording.As were her stomach, lungs and liver. Perhaps we've got an offal fetishist on our hands?

Nothing you have done with regards to the minutia and details transforms this attack into a punter who got upset with a client enough to strip her open so he could stab at her sexual parts as well as other parts.

Obviously, you think it's normal for a stabbing incident to involve one party stripping off the other before the stabs take place. I'm not in that camp, thankfully and wouldn't be on here defending it like you are.

Your client gone rabid hypothesis is just plain wrong because it has no discriminatory power between a punter stabbing his client and a lust murder. Why not? Because it's a lust murder.

I can even apply your client gone rabid hypothesis to Nichols.

Oh, he got mad at her, slit her throat, his primary target and then cut her abdomen a bit in a frenzy before going away.

No lust murder in Nichols either right?

You have no discriminatory power to your criticisms. None. That's because you have no criteria except trying to borrow from parts from the lust murderer one and not calling it what it is. A lust murder.

[Jon Guy]

You seem not to want to address why your 'lust murder' concentrated 6 x more on her stomach than her 'lower part'.

The pattern of the blows seems to indicate (to me) that the killer was sitting on her legs ?

[Batman]

Tabram had the clothes coveting most of her front torso disturbed.

You seem not to want to address why your 'lust murder' concentrated 6 x more on her stomach than her 'lower part'.

That doesn't escape the fact he did attack her private areas didn't he?

Also didn't he rip open her clothes in order to do that, right?

He didn't stab through any of her clothing at all. He prepared her before stabbing her, right?

[Sam Flynn]

You seem not to want to address why your 'lust murder' concentrated 6 x more on her stomach than her 'lower part'.

... or 9 x more on her throat.

[MrBarnett]

That doesn't escape the fact he did attack her private areas didn't he?

Also didn't he rip open her clothes in order to do that, right?

He didn't stab through any of her clothing at all. He prepare her before stabbing her, right?

Private and non-private and he showed least interest in the most private area of all. One relatively small cut to her 'lower part' compared to numerous stabs that even by your 'cultural' definition cannot be describe as being to sexual organs. If you refuse to see that that undermines your 'lust murder' hypothesis (about which you now seem less certain), then that's your choice.

[Batman]

... or 9 x more on her throat.

That's wrong. I never said I rejected these. So strawman.

I look forward to reading how your angry client model can be contrast with lust murders and the C5.

[Sam Flynn]

That doesn't escape the fact he did attack her private areas didn't he?

Once. "Upper sexual organs" don't count as privates.

Also didn't he rip open her clothes in order to do that, right?

Wrong. Lifting the skirts up - if Tabram hadn't lifted them up already - is not "ripping open her clothes". Be factual, please.

[MrBarnett]

... or 9 x more on her throat.

Indeed, Sam. I'm wondering whether it was the lifting of her skirts that gave him access to her stomach, in which case the fact that he uncovered her stomach and genitalia at the same time and concentrated overwhelmingly on her stomach is very telling.

[Batman]

Private and non-private and he showed least interest in the most private area of all. One relatively small cut to her 'lower part' compared to numerous stabs that even by your 'cultural' definition cannot be describe as being to sexual organs. If you refuse to see that that undermines your 'lust murder' hypothesis (about which you now seem less certain), then that's your choice.

Obviously, you read my other thread because you are participating in it.

https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10998

I am indicating the single stab wound was so bloody because she wasn't exsanguinated enough, that he didn't do another one. He experimented with Nichols after discovering this with Tabram from which he got a taste for it after Smith (and probably lots more before).

[Batman]

Once. "Upper sexual organs" don't count as privates.Wrong. Lifting the skirts up - if Tabram hadn't lifted them up already - is not "ripping open her clothes". Be factual, please.

That's totally wrong and misleading.

He pulled her skirt up but he ripped off her blouse. PC Barrett describes this. Meaning PC Barrett was looking at all her private areas exposed. Yes, a woman's bosom is her private areas too. They count, especially in sex crimes.

"don't count", lol.

Because you said so?

[Abby Normal]

I'm on the fence when it comes to Tabram but I lean towards NOT a Ripper victim. Firstly, we need to put the victim profile to one side because, as Sam rightly pointed out, violence and murder are occupational hazards for low-class prostitutes. There are too many discrepancies within the signature and mo for me to link Tabram with the 'canonical' victims. Tabram's killer (or killers) directed most of their stabbings to the upper body. There are little to no cuts or to the lower abdomen or vaginal area. There is nothing to be seen of the Ripper's fantasy of destroying the abdominal area to retrieve organs. It is difficult to accept that the killer went from frenzied stabbing to the upper body, to efficient throat-cutting and methodical slicing of the abdomen in a short space of time, notwithstanding the possibility that Polly's killer was disturbed and had more planned for her. It's not enough to argue that the killer's signature/mo wasn't fully formed, when he shifts from one to the other in a few weeks. That is not what is meant by an evolving signature.

Hi Harry
so his MO and sig sprung fully formed and efficient with his first kill Polly Nichols?
what came before? nothing? he nailed it on his first attempt? I don't think so.

[Sam Flynn]

That's wrong. I never said I rejected these. So strawman.

You might not have rejected them, but you keep harping on about the (single) wound to her (lower) private parts, as if the latter were the focus or target of the attack.

I look forward to reading how your angry client model can be contrast with lust murders and the C5.

Someone losing it and punching multiple stab wounds with the point of a knife is nothing like deeply cutting a throat, slicing open an abdomen and extruding intestines, prior to removing one or more organs.

[Abby Normal]

Not that a workable hypothesis imo.

Most serial killers have a paraphilia within their signature that they are fulfilling. In the canonical series it was abdominal mutilation escalating to organ removal and dissection. In Tabram's case we see impulsive, frenzied stabbings which are not focused in the same direction. I wouldn't be surprised if there was little premeditation involved. It was not uncommon for men to carry knives for protection or part of their trade. Tabram upsets the wrong guy and boom. Not the same as a killer who's prepared to dispatch his victims before he gets to work. Now, this could still have been the same guy. I don't rule out the possibility that the thrill of Tabram's murder might have given him the confidence to indulge his fantasies on Polly et al. There's an argument to be made, but I'm not sure I buy it.

ive argued many times-Tabram could have been his trigger kill.

[Sam Flynn]

so his MO and sig sprung fully formed and efficient with his first kill Polly Nichols?
what came before? nothing?

Fantasies and urges, perhaps.

he nailed it on his first attempt?

Well, he didn't, did he? Nichols' abdomen was cut several times, but he didn't proceed to remove any organs.