Does the Goulston Street Graffito eliminate Jewish Immigrants as suspects?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I was explaining the point of view behind the decision to erase the graffito, not endorsing that point of view. However, bigotry leading to violence does sometimes happen.

You said, "It could have led to violence because people might have thought that the Ripper wrote it", and "the goal is to prevent rioting". That sounds like an endorsement.

The attitude behind the command to erase the text is that the plebs are so volatile, they could break out into rioting on reading an ambiguous message about Jews, possibly written by the Whitechapel Murderer. Well, the text ended up in the papers, but no rioting ensued. Nonetheless, the censorious attitude remains.

[Abby Normal]

The erasure, this post and its likes, all betray a very low view of humanity.

why does lewis's post? all hes doing is pointing out a fact. and the erasure was done in good faith to prevent more harm and bloodshed.
the only thing that has a low view of humanity in this is tje possible rioters. which of course never happened because they wiped it off.

[Lewis C]

The erasure, this post and its likes, all betray a very low view of humanity.

I was explaining the point of view behind the decision to erase the graffito, not endorsing that point of view. However, bigotry leading to violence does sometimes happen.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi RD,

They erased it because they thought that it could lead to violence if people saw it. It could have led to violence because people might have thought that the Ripper wrote it, whether he did or not. When the goal is to prevent rioting, people's perceptions were what mattered, not whether the writing actually did have anything to do with the Ripper case.

The erasure, this post and its likes, all betray a very low view of humanity.

[Patrick Differ]

Hi RD-

When Levy said to Sampson that " you aren't going to prosecute me for a lousy 17 S, ", Sampson replied that he would not let him off for 10,000 pounds.

The other 2 men involved who worked for Sampson , Wolff age 19 and Phillips, age 30 had evidently cocked this plan the night before. Wolff worked for Sampson since he was a kid and he still got 4 months hard labor.

Phillips got off Scott free so it's possible he and Sampson set Levy up. Why did Phillips get off scott free and who tipped off the Police?

Sampson says something strange. He says Phillips tipped him off that his wife was stealing money from him. Phillips had not worked for Sampson that long but he was clearly a manipulator.

Levy got a harsh sentence for 2 reasons- he received stolen goods and because he was a Jew. When you look at Old Bailey records from 1881 to 1886, Levy indeed got a harsher sentence than others with similar crimes.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Scott- Hyman Sampson died 2 months after Jacob Levy was released from Essex Asylum. So he died in April 1887.

Sampson was in his 60s so twice the age of Jacob Levy.

The Levy Butcher house at #36 Middlesex Street was in the Levy Family for close to 75 years. It was given to Jacob by witness Jacob Hyam Levys mother Frances who was a first cousin.

Hyman ended up at #35 somewhere around 1885.

The Trial can be found on the Old Bailey records. What is unusual to me was the animosity Hyman had for Jacob. Hyman admits Jacob was there first and in the beginning they got along and broke bread together. During the Trial however Hyman boasts he had better cuts of meat, eventhough they bought from the same Kosher Butchers on Butchers Row.

Hyman gave no consideration for Jacobs wife and 4 children or the impact that would have on the loss of their father and the bread winner. It was also a disgrace to the Levy family and an impact to their reputations.

One year later Jacob returns, his father dead, his new son 6 months old, and his mother sick and dead one year later in 1888. His nemisis Hyman Sampson dead 2 months after his returning as a convicted criminal lunatic. Revenge??

There is no reasoning for Jacob to steal and inferior piece of meat. He had 32 pounds in his pocket. He said it was for a lark and he was just weighing the meat. It appears by court records that the Police were tipped off by either Sampson or his man Phillips.

Did Sampson set Levy up to get rid of his competition? He certainly did not care about Jacobs wife or 4 young children.

Jacob was struggling with Syphilis and later neurosyphilis which killed him in 1891.

Jacob Levy never got his revenge. Or did he? He was tied to the Lipski Trial which occured 4 months after his release.

it would be interesting to find the financial records for Levy and Sampson in 1886 and 1887.

Hi Patrick


Jacob Levy is indeed a fascinating person of interest and ticks a lot of boxes so to speak.

I do however have one query regards the relationship between Sampson and Levy


At the trial, when Sampson is cross-examined by Geoghegan about his relationship with Levy; Sampson actually says "I have no animosity against him"
Sampson goes on to say that he accused his wife a year earlier and his animosity is clearly aimed at his own wife, rather than Jacob Levy.

In fact, it is specifically noted that Levy received "a good character."

And so when Levy is then found guilty and sentenced to 12 months hard labour, it is the judge's fault for not granting mercy when it came to sentencing him.

The minutes from the official records do not indicate that there was much; if any, animosity between Sampson and Levy.

Sampson seems more aggrieved about his wife than anyone else.


Whether there was or wasn't a hatred between the 2 men, the Old Bailey records do not support this idea.


It would be interesting to know why the judge was relatively heavy with his sentencing of Levy.


Fascinating topic nonetheless.

[Patrick Differ]

Hi Scott- Hyman Sampson died 2 months after Jacob Levy was released from Essex Asylum. So he died in April 1887.

Sampson was in his 60s so twice the age of Jacob Levy.

The Levy Butcher house at #36 Middlesex Street was in the Levy Family for close to 75 years. It was given to Jacob by witness Jacob Hyam Levys mother Frances who was a first cousin.

Hyman ended up at #35 somewhere around 1885.

The Trial can be found on the Old Bailey records. What is unusual to me was the animosity Hyman had for Jacob. Hyman admits Jacob was there first and in the beginning they got along and broke bread together. During the Trial however Hyman boasts he had better cuts of meat, eventhough they bought from the same Kosher Butchers on Butchers Row.

Hyman gave no consideration for Jacobs wife and 4 children or the impact that would have on the loss of their father and the bread winner. It was also a disgrace to the Levy family and an impact to their reputations.

One year later Jacob returns, his father dead, his new son 6 months old, and his mother sick and dead one year later in 1888. His nemisis Hyman Sampson dead 2 months after his returning as a convicted criminal lunatic. Revenge??

There is no reasoning for Jacob to steal and inferior piece of meat. He had 32 pounds in his pocket. He said it was for a lark and he was just weighing the meat. It appears by court records that the Police were tipped off by either Sampson or his man Phillips.

Did Sampson set Levy up to get rid of his competition? He certainly did not care about Jacobs wife or 4 young children.

Jacob was struggling with Syphilis and later neurosyphilis which killed him in 1891.

Jacob Levy never got his revenge. Or did he? He was tied to the Lipski Trial which occured 4 months after his release.

it would be interesting to find the financial records for Levy and Sampson in 1886 and 1887.

[Scott Nelson]

Jacob, an Anglo, would have no.love for his accuser, Hyman Sampson, who lived prior to #35 Middlesex on Goulston Street..........

The Board of Public Works was responsible for relocating the people displaced by the Wentworth and Brunswick Buildings. What were they thinking putting Immigrant Butcher Hyman Sampson at #35, right next to the Legacy Levy Family Butchers and Anglos, at #36 ? Direct competition during a recession.

So, what happened to Hyman Sampson in all this?

[Sunny Delight]

Hi SD- what did this killer do with the organs he took from Eddowes? In terms of the Graffito message the writer, using a double negative, points at the Jews being blamed. Blamed for what? What was the meaning?

If the killer were a disgruntled buyer of boots as some suggest, why the racial connotation? Especially in an area just 2 weeks prior that had civil unrest targeting Jews. Did they want to start a riot? Charles Warren thought so.

It could be that the killer dumped the apron and kept the blood soaked organs on his way Northeast through Metro. If so then what suspect would that fit?

It could also be that the killer dumped the organs and then dumped the apron on Goulston to make police think he was moving Northeast. All the while he doubled back into the City.

The questions I asked myself -was there any relationship between the Stride and Eddowes murders and any known suspects, and if so, what were they.

One name stood out and that was Jacob Levy.

Jacob was a butcher who lived in London City at 36 Middlesex Street. Several blocks East of Mitre Square and one block West of Goulston Street. He was ...right there. He was also a lifelong Whitechapel resident.

Jacob lived for 4 years at 11 Fieldgate Street. Centrally located between Bucks Row and Berner Street. He had lived..right there.

Jacob spent 1 months in Chelmsford prison and 11 months in Essex Asylum after attempting suicide by strangulation. He was an Anglo Jew convicted by his neighbor, Hyman Sampson, an Immigrant Jew from Poland, for meat theft March 1886.

Jacob, an Anglo, would have no.love for his accuser, Hyman Sampson, who lived prior to #35 Middlesex on Goulston Street. The apron and grafitto, a message for Immigrant Jews? Left at Goulston Street? It may or may not be a coincidence.

What about Stride. The International Working Mens Club next to Dutfields Yard was the center of Jewish Immigrant Socialism and Anarchy. Was the shout Lipski a racial slur or a message for Authorities? Jacob Levy in 1886 and then Israel Lipski in 1887 faced the same gentile justice system.
Was the killer trying to point the finger at Immigrant Jews, and Especially the Berner Streeters who were hated by the Anglo Jews? Levy and Lipski had the same drunkard barrister.

One of the witnesses to Eddowes was Jacob Levys first cousin Joseph Hyam Levy. It was his mother Francis that gave #36 to Jacob. What did he see and why was he reluctant to talk about what he saw at Church Passage?

The Board of Public Works was responsible for relocating the people displaced by the Wentworth and Brunswick Buildings. What were they thinking putting Immigrant Butcher Hyman Sampson at #35, right next to the Legacy Levy Family Butchers and Anglos, at #36 ? Direct competition during a recession.

Jacob Levy was a convicted criminal Lunatic released in 1887. His brother and best friend Abraham committed suicide in 1875, his brother in law in 1883. He lost his father 2 weeks after being convicted. His mother died in May 1888.

What other suspects have this coincidental relationship with these murders on September 30?

if any of the witnesses are to be believed and the killer was of Jewish appearance and dressed shabby genteel, consider Jacob Levy was found with 32 pounds plus in his pocket and did not need to steal 14 lbs of meat at 7d per lb. As he repeated to authorities. It was just a lark.

Jacob Levy had motive against Prostitutes, Authority and Immigrant Jews. His hatred and blame towards them from going from respected businessman to convicted criminal lunatic is the space of 1 year, along with the disgrace and humiliation that came with it. Revenge?

I struggle to find another Suspect that ties to all of the murders in so many areas. Motives, means, capability and skill, and location.

I don't really have any interest in suspects to be honest. The case is unprovable at this juncture. My interest lies in trying to discern, as close as can be reasonably expected, exactly what happened on the nights the killer struck. Suspects come and go. All of them are weak suspects but with a hierarchy within that of decent ones and unrealistic ones.

My own view is that the killer was the man who attacked Liz Stride at 12:45am and was seen by Israel Schwartz. The liklihood in my mind is that the killer had left Dutfields Yard by the time Diemschutz found Stride in the yard beside the International Working Men's club. The reason for the anti-semitic slur directed at Schwartz by the killer was basically a local slang term to abuse the Jewish population. Nothing more to it. The killer was a local man.

He meets Eddowes, murders her, mutilates her and takes organs as trophies. Why does he take the apron? We will never know, could be 20 different reasons but it doesn't matter- the important thing is he did take it. He headed back home and passed Goulston Street discarding it when he felt it was safe to do so and discarding it into a hallway so it would not be immediately visible from someone entering the street. He goes home. PC Long and DC Halse pass Goulston Street at about 2:20am but don't see each other. Probably missed one another by a few minutes. Long doesn't see the apron. Halse doesn't either.

Subsequently on his next rotation Long finds the apron and takes it back to the station. It is later found to be a piece of apron taken from Eddowes. The graffitti is unconnected to the case and was essentially a red herring. Long was looking for blood splashes on the wall and saw the graffitti. It doesn't appear to have been particularly noticeable. We can never prove it is unconnected but to my mind that is the liklihood.

[Patrick Differ]

Thanks George. Hi John-

I think Bury is plausible but considerably better than Levy and like Kosminski ? He was nothing like Kosminski. Levy, unlike Bury..lived in the kill zones. He was intimate with the zones.

Levy, like Bury, also lived in a Female dominated household. His mother was previously married with 2 daughters. When she remarried Jacobs father she had 3 daughters, then 3 sons. Jacob as child 8 of 10. Jacob was born in 1856, his oldest step sister gave birth in the same year. He became an uncle as an infant. With 10 kids in the house and a Butcher shop to run, these 5 women would have been a dominant force until the boys finished Jewish Free School ( learning anatomy) , and became teenagers. Imagine being a teenager in Whitechapel.

The witnesses need to be factored in. Elizabeth Long is interesting to me because the sidewalk on Hanbury is not that wide. She literally would have been only 5 or 6 feet at most away from Chapman and her likely killer. All she knew was that the man was Jewish ( unlike Bury) , and he dressed Shabby Genteel ( like Bury and Levy). Levy made money as a butcher and had 32 pounds and change on him when he was arrested for theft.

Kosminski, as an immigrant Jew and reportedly an imbecile, and only has the fact that he was Jew, in common with Levy?
Kosminski was a barber and Levy a butcher. Bury was a Sawdust salesman. These women were gutted. Kelly was also skinned, or the attempt was made. That's a butcher skill.

Bury and Levy had similar profiles so both should be serious candidates.

Jacob and his brother Abraham were into gambling and women as teenagers. In the 1871 census they were listed as Butchers.

Abraham committed suicide in 1875 by hanging in his room, having lost big on derby day. Jacob found him. Jacob tried to hang himself in Chelmsford prison in 1886 but failed. He then ends up in general population of the Essex Lunatic asylum.

Jacob Levys mother died in May 1888 from Cancer. Unfortunately for Jacob he missed a year of her life near the end of her life because of his conviction.

Levy is my own #1 suspect in this case. He fits the events of September 30th, was a butcher, lived there, and was an Englishman and a Jew. He could afford Shabby Genteel and the Rag Trade to enable that was on the same Street he lived- Middlesex Street.

[GBinOz]

Hi SD- what did this killer do with the organs he took from Eddowes? In terms of the Graffito message the writer, using a double negative, points at the Jews being blamed. Blamed for what? What was the meaning?

If the killer were a disgruntled buyer of boots as some suggest, why the racial connotation? Especially in an area just 2 weeks prior that had civil unrest targeting Jews. Did they want to start a riot? Charles Warren thought so.

It could be that the killer dumped the apron and kept the blood soaked organs on his way Northeast through Metro. If so then what suspect would that fit?

It could also be that the killer dumped the organs and then dumped the apron on Goulston to make police think he was moving Northeast. All the while he doubled back into the City.

The questions I asked myself -was there any relationship between the Stride and Eddowes murders and any known suspects, and if so, what were they.

One name stood out and that was Jacob Levy.

Jacob was a butcher who lived in London City at 36 Middlesex Street. Several blocks East of Mitre Square and one block West of Goulston Street. He was ...right there. He was also a lifelong Whitechapel resident.

Jacob lived for 4 years at 11 Fieldgate Street. Centrally located between Bucks Row and Berner Street. He had lived..right there.

Jacob spent 1 months in Chelmsford prison and 11 months in Essex Asylum after attempting suicide by strangulation. He was an Anglo Jew convicted by his neighbor, Hyman Sampson, an Immigrant Jew from Poland, for meat theft March 1886.

Jacob, an Anglo, would have no.love for his accuser, Hyman Sampson, who lived prior to #35 Middlesex on Goulston Street. The apron and grafitto, a message for Immigrant Jews? Left at Goulston Street? It may or may not be a coincidence.

What about Stride. The International Working Mens Club next to Dutfields Yard was the center of Jewish Immigrant Socialism and Anarchy. Was the shout Lipski a racial slur or a message for Authorities? Jacob Levy in 1886 and then Israel Lipski in 1887 faced the same gentile justice system.
Was the killer trying to point the finger at Immigrant Jews, and Especially the Berner Streeters who were hated by the Anglo Jews? Levy and Lipski had the same drunkard barrister.

One of the witnesses to Eddowes was Jacob Levys first cousin Joseph Hyam Levy. It was his mother Francis that gave #36 to Jacob. What did he see and why was he reluctant to talk about what he saw at Church Passage?

The Board of Public Works was responsible for relocating the people displaced by the Wentworth and Brunswick Buildings. What were they thinking putting Immigrant Butcher Hyman Sampson at #35, right next to the Legacy Levy Family Butchers and Anglos, at #36 ? Direct competition during a recession.

Jacob Levy was a convicted criminal Lunatic released in 1887. His brother and best friend Abraham committed suicide in 1875, his brother in law in 1883. He lost his father 2 weeks after being convicted. His mother died in May 1888.

What other suspects have this coincidental relationship with these murders on September 30?

if any of the witnesses are to be believed and the killer was of Jewish appearance and dressed shabby genteel, consider Jacob Levy was found with 32 pounds plus in his pocket and did not need to steal 14 lbs of meat at 7d per lb. As he repeated to authorities. It was just a lark.

Jacob Levy had motive against Prostitutes, Authority and Immigrant Jews. His hatred and blame towards them from going from respected businessman to convicted criminal lunatic is the space of 1 year, along with the disgrace and humiliation that came with it. Revenge?

I struggle to find another Suspect that ties to all of the murders in so many areas. Motives, means, capability and skill, and location.

Well reasoned and presented post Patrick. Well done.

Cheers, George

[John Wheat]

Hi SD- what did this killer do with the organs he took from Eddowes? In terms of the Graffito message the writer, using a double negative, points at the Jews being blamed. Blamed for what? What was the meaning?

If the killer were a disgruntled buyer of boots as some suggest, why the racial connotation? Especially in an area just 2 weeks prior that had civil unrest targeting Jews. Did they want to start a riot? Charles Warren thought so.

It could be that the killer dumped the apron and kept the blood soaked organs on his way Northeast through Metro. If so then what suspect would that fit?

It could also be that the killer dumped the organs and then dumped the apron on Goulston to make police think he was moving Northeast. All the while he doubled back into the City.

The questions I asked myself -was there any relationship between the Stride and Eddowes murders and any known suspects, and if so, what were they.

One name stood out and that was Jacob Levy.

Jacob was a butcher who lived in London City at 36 Middlesex Street. Several blocks East of Mitre Square and one block West of Goulston Street. He was ...right there. He was also a lifelong Whitechapel resident.

Jacob lived for 4 years at 11 Fieldgate Street. Centrally located between Bucks Row and Berner Street. He had lived..right there.

Jacob spent 1 months in Chelmsford prison and 11 months in Essex Asylum after attempting suicide by strangulation. He was an Anglo Jew convicted by his neighbor, Hyman Sampson, an Immigrant Jew from Poland, for meat theft March 1886.

Jacob, an Anglo, would have no.love for his accuser, Hyman Sampson, who lived prior to #35 Middlesex on Goulston Street. The apron and grafitto, a message for Immigrant Jews? Left at Goulston Street? It may or may not be a coincidence.

What about Stride. The International Working Mens Club next to Dutfields Yard was the center of Jewish Immigrant Socialism and Anarchy. Was the shout Lipski a racial slur or a message for Authorities? Jacob Levy in 1886 and then Israel Lipski in 1887 faced the same gentile justice system.
Was the killer trying to point the finger at Immigrant Jews, and Especially the Berner Streeters who were hated by the Anglo Jews? Levy and Lipski had the same drunkard barrister.

One of the witnesses to Eddowes was Jacob Levys first cousin Joseph Hyam Levy. It was his mother Francis that gave #36 to Jacob. What did he see and why was he reluctant to talk about what he saw at Church Passage?

The Board of Public Works was responsible for relocating the people displaced by the Wentworth and Brunswick Buildings. What were they thinking putting Immigrant Butcher Hyman Sampson at #35, right next to the Legacy Levy Family Butchers and Anglos, at #36 ? Direct competition during a recession.

Jacob Levy was a convicted criminal Lunatic released in 1887. His brother and best friend Abraham committed suicide in 1875, his brother in law in 1883. He lost his father 2 weeks after being convicted. His mother died in May 1888.

What other suspects have this coincidental relationship with these murders on September 30?

if any of the witnesses are to be believed and the killer was of Jewish appearance and dressed shabby genteel, consider Jacob Levy was found with 32 pounds plus in his pocket and did not need to steal 14 lbs of meat at 7d per lb. As he repeated to authorities. It was just a lark.

Jacob Levy had motive against Prostitutes, Authority and Immigrant Jews. His hatred and blame towards them from going from respected businessman to convicted criminal lunatic is the space of 1 year, along with the disgrace and humiliation that came with it. Revenge?

I struggle to find another Suspect that ties to all of the murders in so many areas. Motives, means, capability and skill, and location.

In my opinion Bury is a considerably better suspect than Levy. Also Levy is only really suspected because he is similar to Aaron Kosminski in many respects.

Cheers John

[Patrick Differ]

Hi SD- what did this killer do with the organs he took from Eddowes? In terms of the Graffito message the writer, using a double negative, points at the Jews being blamed. Blamed for what? What was the meaning?

If the killer were a disgruntled buyer of boots as some suggest, why the racial connotation? Especially in an area just 2 weeks prior that had civil unrest targeting Jews. Did they want to start a riot? Charles Warren thought so.

It could be that the killer dumped the apron and kept the blood soaked organs on his way Northeast through Metro. If so then what suspect would that fit?

It could also be that the killer dumped the organs and then dumped the apron on Goulston to make police think he was moving Northeast. All the while he doubled back into the City.

The questions I asked myself -was there any relationship between the Stride and Eddowes murders and any known suspects, and if so, what were they.

One name stood out and that was Jacob Levy.

Jacob was a butcher who lived in London City at 36 Middlesex Street. Several blocks East of Mitre Square and one block West of Goulston Street. He was ...right there. He was also a lifelong Whitechapel resident.

Jacob lived for 4 years at 11 Fieldgate Street. Centrally located between Bucks Row and Berner Street. He had lived..right there.

Jacob spent 1 months in Chelmsford prison and 11 months in Essex Asylum after attempting suicide by strangulation. He was an Anglo Jew convicted by his neighbor, Hyman Sampson, an Immigrant Jew from Poland, for meat theft March 1886.

Jacob, an Anglo, would have no.love for his accuser, Hyman Sampson, who lived prior to #35 Middlesex on Goulston Street. The apron and grafitto, a message for Immigrant Jews? Left at Goulston Street? It may or may not be a coincidence.

What about Stride. The International Working Mens Club next to Dutfields Yard was the center of Jewish Immigrant Socialism and Anarchy. Was the shout Lipski a racial slur or a message for Authorities? Jacob Levy in 1886 and then Israel Lipski in 1887 faced the same gentile justice system.
Was the killer trying to point the finger at Immigrant Jews, and Especially the Berner Streeters who were hated by the Anglo Jews? Levy and Lipski had the same drunkard barrister.

One of the witnesses to Eddowes was Jacob Levys first cousin Joseph Hyam Levy. It was his mother Francis that gave #36 to Jacob. What did he see and why was he reluctant to talk about what he saw at Church Passage?

The Board of Public Works was responsible for relocating the people displaced by the Wentworth and Brunswick Buildings. What were they thinking putting Immigrant Butcher Hyman Sampson at #35, right next to the Legacy Levy Family Butchers and Anglos, at #36 ? Direct competition during a recession.

Jacob Levy was a convicted criminal Lunatic released in 1887. His brother and best friend Abraham committed suicide in 1875, his brother in law in 1883. He lost his father 2 weeks after being convicted. His mother died in May 1888.

What other suspects have this coincidental relationship with these murders on September 30?

if any of the witnesses are to be believed and the killer was of Jewish appearance and dressed shabby genteel, consider Jacob Levy was found with 32 pounds plus in his pocket and did not need to steal 14 lbs of meat at 7d per lb. As he repeated to authorities. It was just a lark.

Jacob Levy had motive against Prostitutes, Authority and Immigrant Jews. His hatred and blame towards them from going from respected businessman to convicted criminal lunatic is the space of 1 year, along with the disgrace and humiliation that came with it. Revenge?

I struggle to find another Suspect that ties to all of the murders in so many areas. Motives, means, capability and skill, and location.

[Sunny Delight]

I don't think it is very likely that the killer penned the graffitti and indeed may have been bemused by the significance it subsequently achieved.

The most likely series of events to my mind is that the killer flees the Eddowes crime scene with her apron. He eventually stops for an unknown reason in Goulston Street and discards the apron as he feels it is safe to do so. He discards it into a doorway so it would not be immediately visible to someone on the street. PC Long passes just as DC Halse does and they both miss it. Subsequently PC Long then discovers the apron.

Without casting aspertions on PC Long he was dismissed in 1889 for being drunk on duty and at the Inquest did not bring his pocket book, something that would even embarrass a rookie. Can his insistence that the apron was not there at 2:20am be taken as accurate considering this? I don't think it can.

[Geddy2112]

As a point of reference -- BTK was a husband, father, elder in his church, and a Cub Scout troop leader. I remember hearing one of the police officers who caught him saying I was shocked at how absolutely normal he appeared to be.

I remember the first time I saw a picture of him and thought he was shifty AF. I do not know I know judging books by the cover etc but sometimes someone or something just does not sit right - first impressions and all of that so I get it when folk say the photo of Charles Cross looks shifty, but in my case with BTK is it because we want them to be shifty or already know in BTKs case he was shifty.