Height of GSG a Clue?

[Wickerman]

Thankyou for all that Rob.

With respect to the GSG.
I wanted to bring up one of the two plans drawn by Foster to be used by the Coroner at the Inquest.
I am suspecting that the Coroners suggestion to PC Long (was it not Juwes?), came from something Coroner Langham had in front of him. This plan is the only source I can imagine which may have prompted Langham to ask such a question. I placed a loop around the area where the GSG has been written on the top right corner of the plan.
Unfortunately I am not able to define the spelling of the word Juwes/Jewes from the copy I have.
I find it interesting that the handwriting in the top corner does not seem to match that of either Foster or Langham. Yet, I would think that such notes were indeed placed on the plan by the Coroner, or by someone else at the Coroner's direction.
This was part of the purpose of the plan, for the Coroner to understand the scene and make his own notes.

[Rob Clack]

I placed the lamps from photos and postcards I have seen ranging from 1895 to about 1908. The Goads map is dated May 1890.
No Goads Map I have seen has Lamps marked on them and Blue circles have always represented Hydrants. There are three Mitre Square Goad maps I am familiar with. 1887, 1939 and 1957. The 1887 map has the hydrant on the corner with Mitre Street while the 1939 and 1957 has the hydrant moved to just left of center in the square itself.

Rob

[Wickerman]

Then the Ordinance Survey Map for 1894 shows only Hydrants, no lighting.

[Wickerman]

If I remember correctly this is where I placed the lamps in that part of Goulston Street.
There's a question mark on the bottom one by the Goulston Street Baths. It's possibly a wall lamp.
The blue circles by the way are hydrants.
Rob

Thankyou Rob.
By the way, do you have the date of the Goads Map you are using?, and also the lamps which are superimposed on the map, what date do they represent?

And yes, the Blue circles on your map are Hydrants. The Goad Map I previously posted was kindly sent to me by Jon Ogan several years ago, but I have no idea who typed 'Lampost' against the circles.
I can see how the mix-up could have happened. I have a Goad Map of Mitre Sq where the street lighting is for sure shown in blue circles - but I don't know what year the map represents.
The Ordinance Survey Map for 1873 shows Light Posts (L.P.) and Wall Lamps (L). I have circled the L.P. in red, the L in purple.

[Sam Flynn]

PC Long [inquest]—J-E-W-S
Coroner—J-U-W-E-S
Unnamed Inspector [as reported by PC Long]—J-E-U-W-S
DC Halse—J-U-W-E-S
Superintendent Arnold [6th November report]—J-U-E-W-S
Swanson—J-U-W-E-S
Home Office Minute [unattributed] "J-E-W-E-S, not J-U-W-E-S"
Chief Rabbi's letter to Warren—J-U-E-W-E-S
Warren's transcription, sent to Home Office—J-U-W-E-S
And you think you're confused?

...you missed one out, Simon!

George Crapp, semi-literate lavatory attendant: "S-U-W-E-J"

Isnt the fact that virtually all the gentile investigators cant keep the spelling straight somewhat telling about the message itself? Gentiles dont familiarize themselves with Judaism, or Hebrew, very well. They could easily mispell the word "Jews" in fact, as we see they cant even mirror a single mis-spelling of it uniformly.

If this was written by a Jew, you would more likely have seen "WE are not the men", or "The Jews are not the men".

Best regards all.

[Rob Clack]

If I remember correctly this is where I placed the lamps in that part of Goulston Street.



There's a question mark on the bottom one by the Goulston Street Baths. It's possibly a wall lamp.

The blue circles by the way are hydrants.

Rob

[Simon Wood]

Hi Wickerman,

PC Long [inquest]—J-E-W-S

Coroner—J-U-W-E-S

Unnamed Inspector [as reported by PC Long]—J-E-U-W-S

DC Halse—J-U-W-E-S

Superintendent Arnold [6th November report]—J-U-E-W-S

Swanson—J-U-W-E-S

Home Office Minute [unattributed] "J-E-W-E-S, not J-U-W-E-S"

Chief Rabbi's letter to Warren—J-U-E-W-E-S

Warren's transcription, sent to Home Office—J-U-W-E-S

And you think you're confused?

Regards,

Simon

[Howard Brown]

Wick....

Long was uncertain and stood corrected on the second word. You're right...for once in this spirited badinage.

I question whether what Warren sent in is completely accurate,considering that Long was in error about the second word and yet Warren sent a communique to Matthews with the sentence structure of how Long interpreted it. What do you make of this ? Not that it changes the basic gist of the message of course, but with the use of double negatives,its easy to understand how Warren or even Halse ( to be honest) could have made a slight error. I doubt that Halse did,however,since he stayed with the message if you remember.

Back to you....

[Wickerman]

...its this damned English I have trouble with

Apparently!



Lets just look at the Times of Oct. 12th.

The Coroner ask's PC Long how he spells Jews, Long responds "J-e-w-s", but then the Coroner ask's an odd question, "was it not J-u-w-e-s?".

My question is this, "where did the Coroner get this alternate spelling from?"

Long was the first witness as to the existence of the GSG, the testimony of Halse has not been given yet, so why is the Coroner questioning the spelling by offering an alternate?

Anyhow, PC Long has offered "J-e-w-s" from memory.

Then the notebook is brought in, Long reads his note but does not correct his version of the spelling, what PC Long says is that the inspector who was with him at the scene thought the spelling was "J-e-u-w-e-s", not that he wrote what the inspector said.

Long wrote "J-e-w-s", the inspector had thought it read "J-e-u-w-e-s", the Coroner suggested it might have been "J-u-w-e-s".

Thats the sequence as I see it from the Times, and I'm still wondering where the Coroner got his version from?
Did the Coroner have something in front of him that we don't know about?

Some may not remember but the plan of Mitre Sq drawn up by Foster, for the Coroner at the inquest, did have the GSG written by someone's hand in the top right corner, below the cardinal point reference. There's a block of writing giving the location of the apron, then the GSG is written in at the bottom.
I can't easily read how the word "Jews" is spelled.

Something to look into..

[Howard Brown]

Dear Wickerman:

Robert Clack had made those posts regarding the area,I believe. If he sees this,maybe he can chime in.

Sor...I didn't state that Long had his lamp on at all times. I made the observation that had there been no ambient light,which of course there was , then in a slightly sarcastic way I was suggesting that had there been no light at all he would have needed a lamp to guide his way...much like I am doing with you and your heathen, non-believer approach to the G.

Now let me ask you, thou of little faith, don't you believe that there was enough ambient light for someone to have stopped and written the message?

Back to you,Sir Straw.

[Howard Brown]

Signore Mergi:

Il miei caro amico:

I suppose Long can be credited for correcting his error,if we look at it that way. Its good that someone pressed him on the exact spelling. Its also worth keeping in mind that the GSG is sort of a "hybrid" message. The sentence structure comes from Long's interpretation, except for the second word,which comes from Halse.

Thanks for the kind words on my Italian,signore...its this damned English I have trouble with

Ciao
How

[Wickerman]

Dear Wickerman:
That ambient light was available would facilitate the writing at the time of the depositing of the apron piece. If it was as dark as its being suggested here, Long, who flopped a bit at the Inquest, would have had to use his bullseye to see where he was walking.

Howie.
The lamps they carried went out if they ran or moved quickly. The lamps did not carry enough oil to last a full shift, so no, we cannot argue he had his lamp on all the time, and why would he?
If and when he needed light for close inspections of dark corners he would light it as and when required. Stewart might correct me if I'm wrong but I think the beat PC's had to buy their own oil for their lamps?

It's a shame we seem to have lost that thread from 2006 where we exchanged views on Foster's drawings. He placed a lamp in Goulston St, the position of which conflicted with Survey maps of the period. Foster roughly scribbled in a marker for the apron a little south of a street lamp, when in fact the survey map shows that the doorway to 108-119 was actually north of the lamp.
If the GSG was on the right side of the doorway (still can't find a reference for this), as suggested by Sugden then the author of the GSG would have been writing in the shadow with light, however meagre, in his eyes.
The GSG was more likely written in daylight, buddy!

[Canucco dei Mergi]

Arrevederci,Signore Mergi...

"The statement here above has no foundations. Indeed it is simply false."

Au contraire,mon frer. When asked if he was possibly mistaken as to the spelling of the word "Juwes" ( Long had it down as Juews) Long responded : " it may be as to the spelling" which can be found on page 260 of the Ultimate Sourcebook. Thats a bit of flopping,signore...

Ciao,Signore Mergi

Non proprio caro Signor Brown, l'errore l'ha certo fatto ma prima dell'inchiesta, quando ha riportato erroneamente nel suo quadernetto di servizio l'ortografia della parola "Juwes".
All'inchiesta, in maniera molto onesta e repentina, riconosce lo sbaglio.
Nessun flip-flop.

Le traduco in caso il suo italiano si limitasse alle cinque o sei parole sopramenzionate.

Translation:

"Not really my dear Mr Brown, he certainly made a mistake but this was done before the inquest, at the moment he transcribed the word "Juwes" on his notebook in mispelling it.
At the inquest, in a straight and honest way, he doesn't flip-flop about it: he promptly aknowledges his mistake."

In doing this he shows to be extremely trustful: you can count on him to the point of aknowledging his past mistakes.
Don't you agree this modesty would profit to many authors on the case ?

I congratulate with you, mon frère toi aussi, contrary to Long, you didn't mispel any of the italian words you used (pay nevertheless attention to the french ones).

[Howard Brown]

Arrevederci,Signore Mergi...

"The statement here above has no foundations. Indeed it is simply false."

Au contraire,mon frer. When asked if he was possibly mistaken as to the spelling of the word "Juwes" ( Long had it down as Juews) Long responded : " it may be as to the spelling" which can be found on page 260 of the Ultimate Sourcebook. Thats a bit of flopping,signore...

Ciao,Signore Mergi