Goulstan Street Graffito.

[Aelric]

Does Anyone know WHEN the term "Goulston Street Graffito" was adopted? I very much doubt that contemporary writers used it and I'll wager that it was being used in Italian-speaking areas sometime before English-speakers used it. I don't think I've ever seen it in anything before the Centennial (1988).

If I were to put money on it, I'd wager that Martin Fido may have been the first to use it, or at least popularised its use.

[Trevor Marriott]

A new and enigmatic message appears at the same time as a piece of bloodied apron from the murder in a doorway? It’s almost a banker that most would at least try and connect the two.

Most things are speculation Trevor. The only time we can safely say ‘wrong’ is if someone says that it definitely ‘was’ or definitely ‘wasn't’ written by the killer.

But there is no evidence to show that the graffiti was new is there. It could have been there for weeks. People have tried to hard to interpret the message, but the only persons who knows is the person who wrote it and we have no idea who that was. All the many interpretations given over the years are nothing more than guesswork.

I know you keep saying that I keep using the terms unsafe, and guess work but that is what much of ripperology is about, unsafe witness testimony,unreliable newspaper reports, wild uncorroborated speculation by researchers etc etc

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[JeffHamm]

As part of my investigation into proving or disproving the organ removals and the apron piece I worked closely with a consultant gynecologist who was able to assitand provide a valuable insight inot the removal of the organs and the apron piece being suggested as what they were carried away in.

The attcahed photo is the result of a uterus being removed from a live donor by the consulatant, and being wrapped up for a short time and then photographed. if a kidney was added to that there might be even more blood absorbed by the material

As can be seen it is heavily bloodstained not spotted/smeared with blood as the goulston apron piece was described, so based on these results I belive it is fair to say that the killer did not take away the organs in the apron piece.

Which begs the questions did the killer remove the organs? and if he did what did he take them away in, and if not the apron piece, what did he use?

And how did the apron piece end up in Goulston Street, and who deposited it, if not the killer?

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I apologize, but I don't have my reference books with me, but my recollection is that the apron piece had a corner that was described as heavily saturated in blood, which would happen if pieces were placed on the corner, then the apron rolled around it (similar to how the centre of the cloth above is heavily saturated because the organ was placed there and parts further from the centre are just spotted and smeared a bit).

That being said, if the partial uterus and kidney were wrapped in the apron piece, it seems to me unlikely JtR would unwrap them while en route to where ever he was going. While it also seems unlikely to me he would then venture out again with a piece of bloody cloth, that seems less unlikely than unwrapping while travelling. However, if he used the apron only to clean his hands and knife, and tossed it when finished, then the en route idea makes more sense (with the corner having been saturated at the original scene). Since there's nothing to suggest he needed anything from other scenes where he took organs (Chapman's uterus and some bits of belly, Kelly's heart), I see no reason to suggest he needed the apron to carry organs this time.

Of course, anything is possible, but the "apron to clean his hands" due to him rupturing her bowel, still strikes me as the most plausible. Sadly, we don't have any image depicting the nature, placement, or shape of the stains, information that would greatly help us move beyond speculating based upon our own prior beliefs and fooling ourselves into thinking we have uncovered evidence (myself included here of course).

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

But there is no evidence to show that the graffiti was new is there. It could have been there for weeks. People have tried to hard to interpret the message, but the only persons who knows is the person who wrote it and we have no idea who that was. All the many interpretations given over the years are nothing more than guesswork.

I know you keep saying that I keep using the terms unsafe, and guess work but that is what much of ripperology is about, unsafe witness testimony,unreliable newspaper reports, wild uncorroborated speculation by researchers etc etc

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There’s absolutely nothing wrong with treating evidence with caution because of the potential for error and lies but there’s nothing wrong with using a ‘what if’ scenario. The grafitto was either written by the ripper or it wasn’t but we shouldn’t completely dismiss it because it’s an unknown. When you yourself are looking at the case you have the same evidence that’s available to everyone else and you use your own judgment on how to interpret it but you wouldn’t get anywhere if you just chucked out anything that’s not 100% certain. Without sidetracking the thread a case in point is the Memorandum which you say is unsafe to rely on. Ok. It exists. MacNaghten definitely wrote it. He said that he was in receipt of private information and that Druitt’s family felt that he was guilty. So....either MacNaghten was lying or he received incorrect information or he received information that he misinterpreted or he received info and Druitt was guilty. An argument could be, and has been, put forward for accepting or dismissing any of these four. None of us know the truth. But because we don’t know for sure my opinion is that we shouldn’t just dismiss it as unsafe anymore than we should say “well that shows that Druitt must have been the ripper.” Just as I don’t think that we should dismiss the possibility that the ripper wrote the grafitto. He might have.

It boils down to not stating opinions as fact.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I apologize, but I don't have my reference books with me, but my recollection is that the apron piece had a corner that was described as heavily saturated in blood, which would happen if pieces were placed on the corner, then the apron rolled around it (similar to how the centre of the cloth above is heavily saturated because the organ was placed there and parts further from the centre are just spotted and smeared a bit).

That being said, if the partial uterus and kidney were wrapped in the apron piece, it seems to me unlikely JtR would unwrap them while en route to where ever he was going. While it also seems unlikely to me he would then venture out again with a piece of bloody cloth, that seems less unlikely than unwrapping while travelling. However, if he used the apron only to clean his hands and knife, and tossed it when finished, then the en route idea makes more sense (with the corner having been saturated at the original scene). Since there's nothing to suggest he needed anything from other scenes where he took organs (Chapman's uterus and some bits of belly, Kelly's heart), I see no reason to suggest he needed the apron to carry organs this time.

Of course, anything is possible, but the "apron to clean his hands" due to him rupturing her bowel, still strikes me as the most plausible. Sadly, we don't have any image depicting the nature, placement, or shape of the stains, information that would greatly help us move beyond speculating based upon our own prior beliefs and fooling ourselves into thinking we have uncovered evidence (myself included here of course).

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

This makes sense to me. I used to wonder why the killer would have taken away a piece of cloth to wipe his knife and hands when he could have done it in situ but time might have been a factor of course. He might also have wanted to give himself the once over when he got near a lamp and if he needed to to clean himself before he ran into anyone. Obviously he wouldn’t have wanted to have been seen wiping his hands in the street so a darkened doorway was ideal.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Jeff,

This makes sense to me. I used to wonder why the killer would have taken away a piece of cloth to wipe his knife and hands when he could have done it in situ but time might have been a factor of course. He might also have wanted to give himself the once over when he got near a lamp and if he needed to to clean himself before he ran into anyone. Obviously he wouldn’t have wanted to have been seen wiping his hands in the street so a darkened doorway was ideal.

You wonder why the killer cut a piece of the apron. I wonder why there is no record of her wearing an apron when the body was stripped and her clothing and possessions listed in detail at the mortuary.

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[DJA]

You wonder why the killer cut a piece of the apron. I wonder why there is no record of her wearing an apron when the body was stripped and her clothing and possessions listed in detail at the mortuary.

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1 old piece of old white apron with repair was listed under possessions.

[TheCuriousCat]

You wonder why the killer cut a piece of the apron. I wonder why there is no record of her wearing an apron when the body was stripped and her clothing and possessions listed in detail at the mortuary.

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I'm confused. Brown's report speaks of matching a piece of a patched apron to the portion from Goulstan Street, and the Times of October 1st lists a piece of apron among her possessions. Are you specifically wondering why it wasn't listed as something she was wearing?

[Trevor Marriott]

I'm confused. Brown's report speaks of matching a piece of a patched apron to the portion from Goulstan Street, and the Times of October 1st lists a piece of apron among her possessions. Are you specifically wondering why it wasn't listed as something she was wearing?

If she wasnt wearing an apron the killer could not have cut a piece could he

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[TheCuriousCat]

If she wasnt wearing an apron the killer could not have cut a piece could he

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What...?

The doctor's report and the paper both list the apron among her possessions. Where are you getting the idea that she didn't have one? I mean, she might not have had it on, but there was an apron found with her dead body that matched the one found at Goulstan Street.

[Trevor Marriott]

What...?

The doctor's report and the paper both list the apron among her possessions. Where are you getting the idea that she didn't have one? I mean, she might not have had it on, but there was an apron found with her dead body that matched the one found at Goulstan Street.

An old piece of white apron found in her possessions no mention of her wearing an apron when the clothes were taken off the body

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[TheCuriousCat]

An old piece of white apron found in her possessions no mention of her wearing an apron when the clothes were taken off the body

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??????

I've cut a lot of clothes into rags. None of them were being worn by someone at the time. I can't for the life of me figure out why you think it matters if the apron string was wrapped around her waist by the time Dr. Brown saw the body. Your comment, "If she wasn't wearing an apron, the killer could not cut a piece off could he" is non-nonsensical unless you think it isn't possible for someone capable of removing kidneys from inside a body is incapable of taking off an apron.

[Herlock Sholmes]

An old piece of white apron found in her possessions no mention of her wearing an apron when the clothes were taken off the body

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I have to echo Cat’s ?????

As long as it was listed as being in her possession then I really can’t see an issue. Maybe the killer cut the string when he cut away the piece and so when they lifted the body it fell away from her. You’re looking for a mystery where none exists.

[etenguy]

Hi Etenguy

He was in haste to get away, and yet decided it was worth it and stop to write a bit of graffiti that wouldn't have been noticed if it wasn't for the constable searching for blood stains? Even though he hadn't ever felt the need to leave a message before, and it was very ambiguous as to what it meant. He must really have wanted to get that message out, but simultaneously felt content leave it up to chance that it would get spotted. It's always struck me as really suspect.

Hi TCC

The message seems ambiguous to us, but may not have been to its intended audience (of course if we could see the message we might find it was not as ambiguous as reported - whether written by the ripper or not.

Finding the message does seem a bit hit or miss, so if written by the ripper, leaving it where he knew two policemen regularly passed and would be on heightened alert might have raised the likelihood. As to other messages, it is possible he had left messages not found or that he had written to the police but it was not recognised as genuine. Using artefacts from the murder scene to single out the messages as genuine may have been his thinking (both the apron piece and the kidney if the Lusk letter is genuine).

I really don't see how the photograph helps. It apparently was fairly generic handwriting. So was the handwriting on the Dear Boss letter. At best, they would know how the killer (if it was the killer) spelled Jews and if he in fact had similar handwriting to the writer of that note. Which they decided he did. Which didn't help them. Possibly because tonnes of people had very similar handwriting. Like Ulysses S Grant and George Bernard Shaw. But... yeah, it would be cool to have seen the actual picture. I don't think having the picture would have made any difference to catching the killer.

I'm not sure that having a photograph of the GSG would have helped with catching the killer either. But it would have been one potential piece of evidence in an otherwise empty evidence box. At least if it could have properly been examined, it could have been discounted or may have provided some useful data. Alas, it is a moot point since Warren ensured the evidence was destroyed and I find his destruction of potential evidence difficult to understand. I am not convinced by the excuse he gave for erasing the writing.

[Trevor Marriott]

??????

I've cut a lot of clothes into rags. None of them were being worn by someone at the time. I can't for the life of me figure out why you think it matters if the apron string was wrapped around her waist by the time Dr. Brown saw the body. Your comment, "If she wasn't wearing an apron, the killer could not cut a piece off could he" is non-nonsensical unless you think it isn't possible for someone capable of removing kidneys from inside a body is incapable of taking off an apron.

If she wasnt physically wearing an apron at the time of her murder then the killer could not have a cut a pice from that apron its not rocket science, consider the fact that she may have not been wearing an apron but simply been in posssession of two old pieces of white apron prior to her arrest.

The official statement of Dr Brown I believe adds real corroboration to the fact that she wasn’t wearing an apron. “My attention was called to the apron it was the corner of the apron with the string attached.” This shows that the apron piece from the mortuary was of the type which originally had two strings attached.

However, he describes it as a corner piece with a string attached, so that would mean that it was either the left or right-hand corner nearest to the waistband. So that would have meant that if she had been wearing the apron at the time of her death and the killer had cut or torn the apron piece found in Goulston Street then the rest of the apron would be left behind still attached to her body and still fixed with the two strings still attached, and would have been described as an old white apron with a piece missing, not as was described as old white apron piece, and would have been of significant size for the doctors and police to document it as just that. But because the piece found in Goulston Street matched the piece from the mortuary what was accounted with the two pieces was in effect one half of an apron.
However, as previously stated there were discrepancies and conflicting reports both from official statements of officers and doctors alike.

Dr Brown as quoted in The Telegraph Inquest report:
“Coroner: Was your attention called to the portion of the apron that was found in Goulston- street?
“Dr Brown: Yes I fitted that portion which was spotted with blood to the remaining portion, which was still attached by the strings to the body.”

Note he refers to strings suggesting that the apron was still fixed to the body. This press report is incorrect and misleading. As has been previously stated the body arrived at the mortuary at 3.15 am and was then stripped. The Goulston Street apron piece was at that time in the hands of Dr Phillips who was at Leman Street Police Station and after receiving it, later on, took it to the mortuary for it to be matched with the mortuary piece, but he did not arrive at the mortuary till after 5.20 am so Dr. Brown could not have fitted the Goulston Street piece at the mortuary while the mortuary piece was affixed to the body.

Again with the police officers, there are inconsistencies with the reports, Inspector Collard’s official statement: “I produce a portion of the apron piece the deceased was apparently wearing which had been cut through and found outside her dress.”

Note he says “apparently wearing” why was he not specific in his statement after all he says he was at the mortuary when the body was stripped, he produced the lists of her clothing and personal effects surely he must have known whether she was or wasn’t wearing one?

Inspector Collard as quoted in The Telegraph: “It was then taken to the mortuary, and stripped by Mr Davis, the mortuary keeper, in presence of the two doctors and myself. I have a list of articles of clothing more or less stained with blood and cut.”

Inspector Collard as quoted in the Times: “The body was taken to the mortuary. A portion of the apron was found on her, and the other portion picked up in Goulston Street, would also be produced.”

His quotes from the above newspapers do not help in clarifying the matter, and he makes no mention of Dc Halse being present.

Dc Halse states he accompanied Inspector Collard to the mortuary in his official statement states: “I accompanied Inspector Collard to the mortuary I saw the deceased stripped and saw that a portion of apron was missing.”

Was he present when the body was stripped or did he only see the body after it had been stripped?

In this statement, Halse does not help either way in proving or disproving whether she was or wasn’t wearing an apron.

Dc Halse quoted in the Times Newspaper: “I then saw the deceased undressed and noticed that a portion of the apron she wore was missing.”
Dc Halse quoted in The Telegraph: “I saw the deceased and noticed that a portion of her apron was missing

The question must be as to what made Dc Halse make specific note of the missing piece and when? The Goulston Street piece was not found until 2.55 am and then the officer finding it conveyed it to a police station arriving at about 3.15 am that would have been the same time that the body of Eddowes arrived at the mortuary and was stripped. After all, I would have thought the torn clothing caused by the knife and the wounds of Eddowes would have been more noticeable and warranted noting down. Or was it a case of him becoming aware of the significance of the apron piece much later? Because when the body was stripped and he was present, no one at the mortuary would have been aware of the Goulston Street piece having been found.

On a final note had she been wearing an apron and the killer cut a piece he would have had great difficulty because her clothes were up above her waist and if she had been wearing an apron that would have been the most difficult of all her clothing to take hold of and cut because it would have been the furthest item of clothing away from the killer, other clothing would have been more accessible and easier to cut.

So those who belive that she was wearing an apron, and that the killer cut a piece to either take the organs away or to wipe his hands and knife may want to re think that belief.

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