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  • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    My apologies for my rather long absence from this particular thread; i have an issue with my data and have been eagerly trying to resolve this problem BEFORE submitting my findings. To date, i have been unsuccessful in corroborating 1 particular key fact which is negating my other findings quite considerably. As things stand it would be inappropriate for me to speculate on something which i am keen to seek evidence for.

    I'll be back

    Regards

    TRD
    Here we go again.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ginger View Post

      It's perhaps unfair of me, but I'd been rather under the impression that while Lusk himself may have been entirely respectable, a lot of the support for the Committee came from the local petty criminals, whose businesses (gambling, whoring, and prize fighting) were being damaged by the fear that people felt in going to the East End because of the Ripper. I may be entirely wrong in that, though.
      Interesting. I'd like some clarification on this point.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
        My apologies for my rather long absence from this particular thread; i have an issue with my data and have been eagerly trying to resolve this problem BEFORE submitting my findings. To date, i have been unsuccessful in corroborating 1 particular key fact which is negating my other findings quite considerably. As things stand it would be inappropriate for me to speculate on something which i am keen to seek evidence for.

        I'll be back

        Regards

        TRD


        Take your time, we will wait, no problem, the more you study the letter the better, we will just wait here.


        The Baron

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

          Interesting. I'd like some clarification on this point.
          As I said, I may well be wrong, and it's entirely conjecture on my part - I have no supporting documentation, except that I've read enough descriptions by others of Lusk as an honest tradesman that I tend to accept that part as true. I've not gone to any sort of primary documentation on this, though.

          Now, with the caveats out of the way: I'm reasoning that the Victorian demi-monde saw itself in terms similar to that of its modern counterpart. In a modern city, the street-level drug dealers, the bookies who take bets at the corner bar, the guys who run poker games in the back room - in short, most or all of the people who commit victimless crimes - none of them really see themselves as doing anything wrong. They understand that they can go to jail if caught, but by and large they see themselves as businessmen providing services that people want.

          We know that prizefighting, gambling, and prostitution were the dominant vices in the East End in 1888. I have no real doubt but that the men (and occasionally women) in charge of these saw themselves in much the same terms, as businessmen engaged in a risky business, satisfying a public need.

          A number of sources speak of the night life of the East End being dampened in the immediate wake of the murders. Even if it picked up a few days later, the Ripper was costing people money. It seems not improbable to me - it seems likely, in fact - that some of the local vice operations would subscribe to a publicly advertised Vigilance Committee intended to stop the Ripper crimes. Lusk was involved from a sense of civic duty, and I'm sure quite a few others were as well, but in my experience, money is a better motivator than pride for most people. The local vice lords wanted the Ripper gone as much as anyone. That's not to say that you'd subscribe as "Bob's Gambling Den" - perhaps "Bob the Collier", and if you happen to run card games at night in the back office after the coal-yard closes, that's just trying to get ahead in the world.

          As I said, it's speculation on my part, but I think I'm likely correct.

          Also, allow me to say that I had no idea you were such a major babe, Harry. The user pics really do add a whole new dimension to the board.

          - Ginger

          Comment


          • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            My apologies for my rather long absence from this particular thread; i have an issue with my data and have been eagerly trying to resolve this problem BEFORE submitting my findings. To date, i have been unsuccessful in corroborating 1 particular key fact which is negating my other findings quite considerably. As things stand it would be inappropriate for me to speculate on something which i am keen to seek evidence for.

            I'll be back

            Regards

            TRD
            You could present what you have, but specifically point to the problem that makes it all fall apart (negating your other findings), and indicate what it is you're looking for to see if that can be over come. This board has a huge number of people who could assist. It sounds like you've got a testable idea, one that is hanging by a thread apparently, but that's ok. Even if the idea as presented falls down, within the thinking that got you to where you are now there may still be a few gems or bits worth salvaging. Or, your critical piece of information may be produced.

            - Jeff

            Comment


            • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
              My apologies for my rather long absence from this particular thread; i have an issue with my data and have been eagerly trying to resolve this problem BEFORE submitting my findings. To date, i have been unsuccessful in corroborating 1 particular key fact which is negating my other findings quite considerably. As things stand it would be inappropriate for me to speculate on something which i am keen to seek evidence for.

              I'll be back

              Regards

              TRD
              Hi looking for the last bit of data are we?
              G U T

              There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ginger View Post

                As I said, I may well be wrong, and it's entirely conjecture on my part - I have no supporting documentation, except that I've read enough descriptions by others of Lusk as an honest tradesman that I tend to accept that part as true. I've not gone to any sort of primary documentation on this, though.

                Now, with the caveats out of the way: I'm reasoning that the Victorian demi-monde saw itself in terms similar to that of its modern counterpart. In a modern city, the street-level drug dealers, the bookies who take bets at the corner bar, the guys who run poker games in the back room - in short, most or all of the people who commit victimless crimes - none of them really see themselves as doing anything wrong. They understand that they can go to jail if caught, but by and large they see themselves as businessmen providing services that people want.

                We know that prizefighting, gambling, and prostitution were the dominant vices in the East End in 1888. I have no real doubt but that the men (and occasionally women) in charge of these saw themselves in much the same terms, as businessmen engaged in a risky business, satisfying a public need.

                A number of sources speak of the night life of the East End being dampened in the immediate wake of the murders. Even if it picked up a few days later, the Ripper was costing people money. It seems not improbable to me - it seems likely, in fact - that some of the local vice operations would subscribe to a publicly advertised Vigilance Committee intended to stop the Ripper crimes. Lusk was involved from a sense of civic duty, and I'm sure quite a few others were as well, but in my experience, money is a better motivator than pride for most people. The local vice lords wanted the Ripper gone as much as anyone. That's not to say that you'd subscribe as "Bob's Gambling Den" - perhaps "Bob the Collier", and if you happen to run card games at night in the back office after the coal-yard closes, that's just trying to get ahead in the world.

                As I said, it's speculation on my part, but I think I'm likely correct.

                Also, allow me to say that I had no idea you were such a major babe, Harry. The user pics really do add a whole new dimension to the board.
                NOT A CHALLENGE, but a request. Any information you have regarding prize fights in the East End 1888 I would love to read.

                Visit my web page and you will understand why: www.perno.com

                Comment


                • Originally posted by APerno View Post

                  NOT A CHALLENGE, but a request. Any information you have regarding prize fights in the East End 1888 I would love to read.

                  Visit my web page and you will understand why: www.perno.com
                  Put a request in "Pub Talk" or perhaps "Scene of the Crimes". There are several people on here who can address this in great detail, but I'm not one of them. Best wishes.
                  - Ginger

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by APerno View Post

                    NOT A CHALLENGE, but a request. Any information you have regarding prize fights in the East End 1888 I would love to read.

                    Visit my web page and you will understand why: www.perno.com
                    I think you’ve been in touch with steadman brand here in case book?? He knows a lot about boxing, not sure of is knowledge on east end fights though
                    G U T

                    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                    Comment


                    • Hi Ginger,

                      Originally posted by Ginger View Post
                      Lusk was involved from a sense of civic duty, and I'm sure quite a few others were as well, but in my experience, money is a better motivator than pride for most people. The local vice lords wanted the Ripper gone as much as anyone. That's not to say that you'd subscribe as "Bob's Gambling Den" - perhaps "Bob the Collier", and if you happen to run card games at night in the back office after the coal-yard closes, that's just trying to get ahead in the world.
                      the Mile End Vigilance Committee as it was called was founded by local businessmen who felt that the scare surrounding the murders was bad for trade and I'm sure the vice lords were of the same opinion as it kept potential customers away and increased the number of policemen and plain clothes in the area.

                      The question whether the demimonde took part in Committee activites is difficult to answer in my opinion. As most of the normal members (specially businessmen) probably did not want to be lumped with gamblers, pimps and pick-pockets, it's safe to assume that there was no official communication between the Committee and leading underworld figures but it's possible that some lesser criminals joined the patrols or otherwise helped them in little ways.

                      Regards,

                      Boris
                      ~ All perils, specially malignant, are recurrent - Thomas De Quincey ~

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                        Here we go again.
                        lol. you got that right. hes not even good at disguising it!
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by bolo View Post
                          Hi Ginger,



                          the Mile End Vigilance Committee as it was called was founded by local businessmen who felt that the scare surrounding the murders was bad for trade and I'm sure the vice lords were of the same opinion as it kept potential customers away and increased the number of policemen and plain clothes in the area.

                          The question whether the demimonde took part in Committee activites is difficult to answer in my opinion. As most of the normal members (specially businessmen) probably did not want to be lumped with gamblers, pimps and pick-pockets, it's safe to assume that there was no official communication between the Committee and leading underworld figures but it's possible that some lesser criminals joined the patrols or otherwise helped them in little ways.

                          Regards,

                          Boris
                          Hi Boris,



                          One of the two detectives hired by the committee was a career criminal himself and later a Ripper suspect. Charles LeGrande. Also, in 1889, the VC was headed by Albert Bachert. A few years prior, Bachert formed and directed the Skeleton Army under the alias, Alfred Charrington. The Skeleton Army were not opposed to violence themselves. You can be sure not everyone on the VC were snow white.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                            Hi Boris,



                            One of the two detectives hired by the committee was a career criminal himself and later a Ripper suspect. Charles LeGrande. Also, in 1889, the VC was headed by Albert Bachert. A few years prior, Bachert formed and directed the Skeleton Army under the alias, Alfred Charrington. The Skeleton Army were not opposed to violence themselves. You can be sure not everyone on the VC were snow white.
                            hi Jerry
                            nice! whats your thoughts that someone on the VC, maybe even lusk himself sent the kidney?
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                              hi Jerry
                              nice! whats your thoughts that someone on the VC, maybe even lusk himself sent the kidney?
                              Hi Abby,

                              Not suggesting Lusk sent the kidney. Just pointing out there were in fact criminals on the VC.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                                Not suggesting Lusk sent the kidney. Just pointing out there were in fact criminals on the VC.
                                And there was me thinking you were suggesting Le Grand sent it!

                                So, with the Vigilance Committee patrols made up of the unemployed, and Le Grand and co directing them, did any of the committee actually patrol the streets themselves? Or just sit in the Crown, writing letters to the Home Office?

                                Comment

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