The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?

[Darryl Kenyon]

and what would the evidential value be of a forced meeting?

Even if the police carried out a direct confrontation ID procedure it would have little or no evidential value for obvious reasons because the police had ID procedure guidelines as far as ID procedures were concerned to follow and a direct confrontation is a last resort only used when a prisoner in custody refuses to co-operate with an ID procedure and the witness is taken to the cell door and makes the ID there and then.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

What if Kosminski wasn't in custody because they hadn't enough evidence to hold him. But with a successful ID they may have ? Unfortunately with the ID not being successful they had to let him go.

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

This post - or something like it -was lost in the recent site glitch:

henever I read of the Seaside Home I wonder if it was a slip of the pen or a momentary lapse in concentration and if what was meant was The Sailors' Home. This was on Wells St. There was a police fixed point opposite the entrance so the presence of one or more additional officers might go unnoticed or at least unremarked. Just a thought. A location in Whitechapel does seem rather more likely than Brighton.

This is my take on it as well

Regards Darryl

[Trevor Marriott]

That's my interpretation as well - it was a forced meeting of sorts, yes. Not a lineup.

and what would the evidential value be of a forced meeting?

Even if the police carried out a direct confrontation ID procedure it would have little or no evidential value for obvious reasons because the police had ID procedure guidelines as far as ID procedures were concerned to follow and a direct confrontation is a last resort only used when a prisoner in custody refuses to co-operate with an ID procedure and the witness is taken to the cell door and makes the ID there and then.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

This post - or something like it -was lost in the recent site glitch:

henever I read of the Seaside Home I wonder if it was a slip of the pen or a momentary lapse in concentration and if what was meant was The Sailors' Home. This was on Wells St. There was a police fixed point opposite the entrance so the presence of one or more additional officers might go unnoticed or at least unremarked. Just a thought. A location in Whitechapel does seem rather more likely than Brighton.

on February 10th 1895 following a non-fatal knife attack and wounding of another prostitute, Alice Graham, in Whitechapel the police arrested a William Grant Grainger. The police and the press believed that Grainger could have been the Ripper. Up until then, the case would appear to have still been open. There had been no official announcement to the contrary.

Grainger was later convicted of wounding and sentenced to ten years imprisonment. No evidence was ever found to connect him being Jack the Ripper. This clearly shows that the police were still trying to find Jack the Ripper and had no clues as to his identity even as late as 1895. Swanson was however not directly involved in this investigation as he was suffering from flu with a flu epidemic which was sweeping London at that time.

That same year out of the blue a story appeared in the Pall Mall Gazette dated 7th May 1895, which reported that Grainger had been identified by the one person whom the police believe, saw the murderer with a woman a few moments before her mutilated body was found. If the witness was Joseph Lawende, he told the police in his original statement that he had only noticed the man’s height, and did not think he would recognize him again. It is therefore curious as to why he was expected to identify him several years later. If it were Israel Schwartz then he only got a partial sighting of a man with Stride, and her body was not mutilated. Could this be the identification procedure later referred to by Anderson and Swanson? There is no information to tell us where or when this identification procedure took place.

There are concerns over this as there are over the identification procedure Swanson and Anderson refer to. One being the fact that the Grainger offence came under the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan Police and Lawende was a witness in the murder of Eddowes, which came under the jurisdiction of the City Police. Would the Metropolitan Police use a City witness? In practice yes they would, but it appears that if the seaside home identification parade did ever take place then why didn’t the Metropolitan Police also use Lawende the City Police witness and why did Major Smith not know about this?

At the time the Pall Mall Gazette report was published Swanson who led the original Ripper investigation was interviewed by a reporter from that paper. He poured cold water on the suggestion that Grainger could be the Ripper and stated, “The Whitechapel murders were the work of a man who is now dead”. So this in itself again must eliminate Aaron Kosminski as he was institutionalized at that time and he didn’t die until 1919. If Swanson was correct then why did the police subject, Grainger, to an identification procedure in an attempt to connect him to at least one Ripper murder?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Filby]

Yet, Anderson doesn't appear to be describing an 'ID parade,' per se, but a 'confrontation' style of identification.

He writes: 'The moment he was confronted with him..."

If this is true, the alleged identification wasn't 'by the book' --there weren't at least 5 or 6 others in a line-up--which would leave the whole enterprise with either no or extremely limited and problematic evidentiary value if the aim had been prosecution.

Yet, I can't help believing that the whole spirit of Anderson's statement is that a successful prosecution and conviction had been thwarted by an unwilling Jewish witness. That's what he is implying or trying to imply.

Anderson's claims are very problematic.

That's my interpretation as well - it was a forced meeting of sorts, yes. Not a lineup.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Like McNaghten's "City PC that was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" perhaps.

Except that there is no record of any City policeman at that time having been Jewish.

And if a policeman did see a suspect, why was he not called to give evidence at the inquest?

And why did Swanson mention only Lawende's description of a suspect, if a policeman saw a suspect?

And since Swanson recorded the description nearly three weeks after the murder occurred, when would a police witness have come forward and what reliance could be placed on the account of an eyewitness who came forward more than three weeks after the event - especially as he was a policeman?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Why does Aaron Kosminski need to have the appearance of a sailor? I was referring to the convenience of the location rather than the identity of the suspect. (But for the record I haven't a clue what Kosminski looked like).

Because the post to which you refer was about Kosminski's alleged identification and the suspect's having the appearance of a sailor.

That would mean Kosminski's having the appearance of a sailor.

[Bridewell]

Thanks for reminding us.

I remember replying to it with the question: what evidence is there that Aaron Kosminski had the appearance of a sailor?

Why does Aaron Kosminski need to have the appearance of a sailor? I was referring to the convenience of the location rather than the identity of the suspect. (But for the record I haven't a clue what Kosminski looked like).

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

This post - or something like it -was lost in the recent site glitch:

henever I read of the Seaside Home I wonder if it was a slip of the pen or a momentary lapse in concentration and if what was meant was The Sailors' Home. This was on Wells St. There was a police fixed point opposite the entrance so the presence of one or more additional officers might go unnoticed or at least unremarked. Just a thought. A location in Whitechapel does seem rather more likely than Brighton.

Thanks for reminding us.

I remember replying to it with the question: what evidence is there that Aaron Kosminski had the appearance of a sailor?

[Bridewell]

Assumption: That the witness had to be either Lawende or Schwartz. But what if he/she was someone else?

Like McNaghten's "City PC that was (on) a beat near Mitre Square" perhaps.

[Bridewell]

This post - or something like it -was lost in the recent site glitch:

henever I read of the Seaside Home I wonder if it was a slip of the pen or a momentary lapse in concentration and if what was meant was The Sailors' Home. This was on Wells St. There was a police fixed point opposite the entrance so the presence of one or more additional officers might go unnoticed or at least unremarked. Just a thought. A location in Whitechapel does seem rather more likely than Brighton.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

- I think we can be certain the ID took place. Anderson and Swanson both refer to it. McNaghten claimed in a draft of the Memorandum that Kosminski strongly resembled the man seen by a City PC near Mitre Square. How did he know what Kosminski looked like? How did he know who he resembled? He must have known about the ID.



Since you mention Kosminski and Mitre Square, I take it you think Lawende identified Kosminski.

Since you claim that Macnaghten knew what Kosminski looked like, I am curious to know how you would explain why no-one, including Macnaghten and Swanson, ever said what he looked like.

Why did they not mention his fair hair?

It would have been a key factor in the identification.

Kosminski's brothers and sister had dark hair.

Here is a man allegedly being shielded from Gentile Justice by his dark-haired relatives; the police have a description of a fair-haired suspect; and when they see Kosminski, he turns out to be the blond sheep of the family, and fits the description of the man seen by Lawende.

His belongings are searched and police find a pepper and salt loose jacket.

And that sets up the identification confrontation.

The question is: why is none of this mentioned by anyone?

The answer is that Aaron Kosminski did not have fair hair and consequently could not have been identified by Joseph Lawende.




- We dont know why Kosminski became a suspect but a mentally unstable foreigner living locally, of low class? threatening his sister with a knife would surely have set alarm bells ringing once reported to Police either by a family member or someone else.




I think we do know why Kosminski became a suspect - and it had nothing to do with his being of low class.

Isaac Kosminski was a freemason.

I am not sure whether you are suggesting that he was a low class freemason.

I see that, like Elamarna, you are suggesting that Aaron may have been reported to the police by a family member.

I would remind you that according to Anderson, whose narrative both you and he are following, Aaron Kosminski's family 'refused to give him up to justice' and 'would not give up one of their number to Gentile justice'.

That hardly leaves any possibility of what you are suggesting - his relatives reporting him to the police - having happened.

There is no evidence that Kosminski came to the attention of the police before his incarceration.

Elamarna claims it must have existed.

I claim that Kosminski must have had alibis for at least some of the murders.

Unfortunately, the evidence of that no longer exists because, unlike Anderson and Swanson, Isaac Kosminski did not leave us any memoirs or marginalia clearing his brother's name - because he had no idea that he had ever been a suspect.

If Anderson told the truth and the Kosminskis refused to give him up to justice, why is there no record of Aaron Kosminski, with fair hair, having been found being shielded by his relatives, and a pepper-and-salt coloured loose jacket found among his belongings?

Kosminski is arrested, his relatives warned that they are suspected of being accessories to murder, and Kosminski is taken to a London Police Station.
But there is nothing about that in any record.

All we have is Swanson's totally unbelievable account of a Londoner witness and Londoner suspect being taken to Brighton, without any explanation offered.

As for Anderson, he stated originally that 'Kosminski' was already in an asylum when the identification happened.

He offered no evidence that 'Kosminski' became a suspect prior to his incarceration: no arrest, no search, nothing.

Kosminski did not become a suspect until years after the murders ended.

He was, like Druitt, an afterthought, a person whose incarceration, like Druitt's suicide, attracted the interest of investigators, but against whom, like Druitt, not one shred of evidence has ever been produced.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi Herlock.

Sorry for barging into this dogfight, but I suspect that if the late Martin Fido was here, he would point out that Anderson does not name 'Kosminski' in his book, in Blackwood's, or anywhere else.

It was Fido's belief that after the passing of many years, Swanson had become confused, and two different suspects had blended into one.

You don't have to accept this theory, but perhaps it shouldn't be said or implied that Anderson named Kosminski.

He might also point out that Anderson never mentions a seaside home, let alone the Seaside Home, and gives no hint that the identification took place at such a location.

I did myself some time ago suggest that Swanson's Kosminski is a composite figure based on Druitt and Kosminski, which is why Kosminski dies at the wrong time.

The starting point of this myth is the idea that the murderer was obviously insane and the idea that he must have died soon after the murder of Kelly, both of which ideas are mentioned by Macnaghten.

Anderson and Swanson, by an amazing coincidence, came up with just such a person, except that he died some 30 years later.

[Abby Normal]

Sorry, but although I have heard of that murder, and read something about it, I am not familiar with the details.

I will do some more reading.

Are you saying that you think there is some connection between that murder and the Whitechapel Murders?

at the very least its a torso case in ripper territory and had a vertical gash to the midsection like the ripper victims. both jerry and I are some of the few that think there is a possibility that the torso and ripper cases are linked. And just in case you didnt know, hes also one of the best researchers here and has made some fascinating discoveries and connections amongst and between the two series.

[jerryd]

And one other coincidence.

Harry Harris, the 3rd of the Lawende crew, lived at 34, Newcastle Street. This address, if one peered out his back door into Castle Alley, would be right at the murder site of Alice McKenzie.