The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?

[Trevor Marriott]

I sometimes wonder where you get your ideas from.

But in line with the marginalia which is unsafe we know Grainger was subjected to an Id procedure and Swanson could not have penned any part of the marginalia before 1910 I wonder how good his memory was and did he still have all his faculties in the years following his retirement in 1903.

I mention the latter because if you remember it was you who poured scorn on the article in The News of the World dated 1896 whereby Inspector Reid stated that there were no organs removed and taken away from Mary Kelly's room and that Insp Reid's memory had failed him.

Well if Reid's memory had failed only 8 years after the murder how was Swanson's memory 20+ years later?

The marginalia is unsafe to rely on and maybe you should have a go at answering the questions posed by PI in post 559

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[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

So when did this mythical ID procedure take place? and why is there no record of it ever taking place, or any of the officers involved in the investigation having any knowledge of it ever taking place

(Trevor Marriott)


I would add: why is there no record of the name of the witness?

Why did Swanson refer to him as witness?

Why did he not give his name?

Why did he not name a single policeman involved in the transportation of Kosminski or the identification of Kosminski?

Why did he not name a single policeman involved in the CID surveillance of Kosminski's home?

Why did he not give Kosminski's brother's name?

Why did he not give the name of the street in which the surveillance took place?

Why did he not say when the identification took place?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The ID parade if any such parade ever took place could only have taken place after 1895 because we know that it was thought that Grainger could have been the Ripper, and according to what is written in the marginalia was organised by the Met police without the knowledge of major Smith head of the City police and without it seems the knowledge of the investigating officers from the Met.

Trevor, you keep confusing yourself to an astonishing extent into thinking that an identification by a single witness must have meant that the entire Metropolitan Police believed they had 100% proof as to the Ripper's identity and could therefore exclude all other suspects. This is absolutely ridiculous. Sure, perhaps Anderson gave this impression in his book but I have little doubt that he was exaggerating for public consumption.

At the same time, you also confuse yourself into thinking that because the few officers within H Division who were investigating the Grainger case felt they needed to check whether Grainger could have been Ripper, this must mean that everyone within the Met Police, including at Scotland Yard, also thought that Grainger could have been the Ripper in 1895. That's ridiculous. Even worse is that you yourself keep pushing the totally contradictory idea that Swanson believed the Ripper was dead in 1895, in which case he obviously couldn't have thought that Grainger was the Ripper!

Your argument all over the place and just isn't making any sense

In answer to your question, it is academic whether or not Swanson knew when Kosminski died because I have stated all along that in my opinion the contents of the marginalia are unsafe and lack any form of corroboration to give it any credence. However, If for example, the last line "Kosminski was the suspect" had been added by another then the rest of the marginalia could refer to the ID regarding Grainger.


It's no surprise that, despite starting your paragraph with the words "In answer to your question...", you haven't answered my question at all. My question was how would Swanson have known in 1910 that Kosminski was still alive. You've simply ducked it, so I assume you can't answer it.

As for the evasive and non-responsive words you've written, it must be obvious to you that the marginalia can't possibly refer to Grainger who not only was never sent to Colney Hatch but wasn't Jewish!! The whole point about the suspect was that he was a Polish Jew. Your bizarre notion that the words "Kosminski was the suspect" were added by another, in contradiction of what the handwriting expert concluded, doesn't make any sense. We've been over this but the short point is that prior to Martin Fido's research in 1987. which accessed sealed records, no one knew that Kosminski had been committed to Colney Hatch, yet the name "Kosminski" was seen in the marginalia by a journalist in 1981 and that is a documented fact.

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I sometimes wonder where you get your ideas from.

[Trevor Marriott]

This couldn’t be any simpler Trevor.

The ID parade if any such parade ever took place could only have taken place after 1895 because we know that it was thought that Grainger could have been the Ripper, and according to what is written in the marginalia was organised by the Met police without the knowledge of major Smith head of the City police and without it seems the knowledge of the investigating officers from the Met.

In answer to your question, it is academic whether or not Swanson knew when Kosminski died because I have stated all along that in my opinion the contents of the marginalia are unsafe and lack any form of corroboration to give it any credence. However, If for example, the last line "Kosminski was the suspect" had been added by another then the rest of the marginalia could refer to the ID regarding Grainger.

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[Scott Nelson]

I've seen the argument made by others, that Swanson knew Kosminski was still alive when he wrote the marginalia, but said he was dead shortly after confinement to thwart any further inquiries. While this argument may have been more germane in or before 1895, it tends to loose relevancy with the passage of time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In 1910 Kosmisnski was still alive he didn't die till 1919!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Trevor not only have you responded to a question I addressed to someone else but you've avoided answering it!

What I was asking is how Swanson would have known in 1910 that Kosminski was still alive. Tell me how he would have known this?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Firstly Trevor, it's entirely untrue to say that Swanson was "quoted in 1895 telling the newspaper that JTR is dead". Will you stop making this false statement?

What is false with it?

As I've now mentioned on more than one occasion, Swanson is not quoted in the PMG article as saying anything. That's why it's false for you to say that Swanson was "quoted in 1895". He was not quoted.

Secondly, it's so incredibly ironic that you tell me not to come back with "that's what Swanson believed"bearing in mind that what the Pall Mall Gazette attributed to Swanson was that "Mr Swanson believed the crimes to have been the work of a man who is now dead". In constantly referring to this very newspaper report, therefore, you are always talking about what Swanson believed!

What I am getting at is that we know the police had not identified the killer by 1889 as the police manpower records show, furthermore the Grainger incident shows that the police still had not identified the killer in 1895 ,and in 1895 Kosminski was still very much alive. I keep saying the marginalia is unsafe to rely on

No one is saying that "the police" ever "identified the killer" (we are talking about a suspect) but if Aaron Kosminski was the suspect, many have argued that he wasn't identified by the Jewish witness until April 1890, thus negating your entire point. The Grainger incident was investigated by H Division, not, as far as is known, by Scotland Yard or by Swanson personally. The marginalia is perfectly safe to rely on to the extent it was written by Swanson but that doesn't mean he was perfectly informed about Kosminski's status

Thirdly, and most importantly, a belief in 1895 that JTR was dead is entirely 100% consistent with what Swanson later wrote in the marginalia that Anderson's suspect, Kosminski, died "shortly after..." being committed to Colney Hatch, considering that Aaron Kosminski was committed to Colney Hatch in February 1891.

So when did this mythical ID procedure take place? and why is there no record of it ever taking place, or any of the officers involved in the investigation having any knowledge of it ever taking place

This isn't known for sure, as you are well aware. Many records have not survived. If it was a City Police identification we just don't have any records from them relating to the Ripper investigation. But it's another false statement by you to say that we don't have records from "any of the officers involved in the investigation having any knowledge of it ever taking place". We have a handwritten record by former Chief Inspector Swanson confirming that such an identification took place.

This couldn’t be any simpler Trevor.

[Trevor Marriott]

Do you have any evidence to show that Swanson (who was a private citizen in 1910) had access to the confidential records of Colney Hatch Lunatic Asylum?

If you do, please post it because I'd love to see it.

In 1910 Kosmisnski was still alive he didn't die till 1919!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[Trevor Marriott]

Firstly Trevor, it's entirely untrue to say that Swanson was "quoted in 1895 telling the newspaper that JTR is dead". Will you stop making this false statement?

What is false with it?

Secondly, it's so incredibly ironic that you tell me not to come back with "that's what Swanson believed" bearing in mind that what the Pall Mall Gazette attributed to Swanson was that "Mr Swanson believed the crimes to have been the work of a man who is now dead". In constantly referring to this very newspaper report, therefore, you are always talking about what Swanson believed!

What I am getting at is that we know the police had not identified the killer by 1889 as the police manpower records show, furthermore the Grainger incident shows that the police still had not identified the killer in 1895 ,and in 1895 Kosminski was still very much alive. I keep saying the marginalia is unsafe to rely on

Thirdly, and most importantly, a belief in 1895 that JTR was dead is entirely 100% consistent with what Swanson later wrote in the marginalia that Anderson's suspect, Kosminski, died "shortly after..." being committed to Colney Hatch, considering that Aaron Kosminski was committed to Colney Hatch in February 1891.

So when did this mythical ID procedure take place? and why is there no record of it ever taking place, or any of the officers involved in the investigation having any knowledge of it ever taking place

So I really don't understand what you are getting at with all these posts and I don't think you do either.

Nothing you are saying is making any sense.

In line with your attempts at discrediting the facts

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[Herlock Sholmes]

How, then, could Swanson have failed to know that Kosminski was very much alive in 1910?
.

Do you have any evidence to show that Swanson (who was a private citizen in 1910) had access to the confidential records of Colney Hatch Lunatic Asylum?

If you do, please post it because I'd love to see it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The point being is that Swanson is quoted in 1895 telling the newspaper that JTR is dead. If we are to believe the marginalia that could not be correct because in 1895 Kosminski was very much alive. so if that is correct then the marginalia as I keep saying is unsafe to rely on.

Dont keep coming back with "well that's what Swanson believed"

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Firstly Trevor, it's entirely untrue to say that Swanson was "quoted in 1895 telling the newspaper that JTR is dead". Will you stop making this false statement?

Secondly, it's so incredibly ironic that you tell me not to come back with "that's what Swanson believed" bearing in mind that what the Pall Mall Gazette attributed to Swanson was that "Mr Swanson believed the crimes to have been the work of a man who is now dead". In constantly referring to this very newspaper report, therefore, you are always talking about what Swanson believed!

Thirdly, and most importantly, a belief in 1895 that JTR was dead is entirely 100% consistent with what Swanson later wrote in the marginalia that Anderson's suspect, Kosminski, died "shortly after..." being committed to Colney Hatch, considering that Aaron Kosminski was committed to Colney Hatch in February 1891.

So I really don't understand what you are getting at with all these posts and I don't think you do either.

Nothing you are saying is making any sense.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Someone has pointed out - with apologies if it was you - that the police would surely have checked from time to time that Kosminski was still safely caged in an asylum - for the protection of public - assuming, of course, that they really believed that Kosminski was the murderer.

Yeah, I always found it hard to believe that they wouldn't have routinely checked on his well being or to see if he had said anything that could incriminate him. And what about the head of the asylum? Would they have told him who they suspected he had in his possession? Even if they did not do so, could he have not put two and two together? And the same goes for the attendants. But apparently if they did know or even if they had strong suspicions it remained a well kept secret and never made its way into public gossip. I can certainly see an attendant having a couple of pints too many and saying hey,you won't believe who I keep an eye on.

c.d.

There is one more consideration: you would think that the Whitechapel Murderer would have been considered to represent an unusually serious security risk to inmates and staff alike - especially those of a particular gender.

Yet there is no record of Kosminski being kept in a padded cell, being fitted with a straitjacket, being kept apart from other inmates, or being prevented from using knives or forks at meal times.

The fact that he threatened a member of staff with a chair - not threw a chair at him or her, as stated by someone the other day - is considered by his detractors to be evidence of his murderous nature, and yet the staff described him as harmless.

Not much of a murderer.

But then he never was much of a suspect.

[c.d.]

Someone has pointed out - with apologies if it was you - that the police would surely have checked from time to time that Kosminski was still safely caged in an asylum - for the protection of public - assuming, of course, that they really believed that Kosminski was the murderer.

Yeah, I always found it hard to believe that they wouldn't have routinely checked on his well being or to see if he had said anything that could incriminate him. And what about the head of the asylum? Would they have told him who they suspected he had in his possession? Even if they did not do so, could he have not put two and two together? And the same goes for the attendants. But apparently if they did know or even if they had strong suspicions it remained a well kept secret and never made its way into public gossip. I can certainly see an attendant having a couple of pints too many and saying hey,you won't believe who I keep an eye on.

c.d.

[Filby]

and what would the evidential value be of a forced meeting?

Even if the police carried out a direct confrontation ID procedure it would have little or no evidential value for obvious reasons because the police had ID procedure guidelines as far as ID procedures were concerned to follow and a direct confrontation is a last resort only used when a prisoner in custody refuses to co-operate with an ID procedure and the witness is taken to the cell door and makes the ID there and then.

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Yes, you are correct - thanks for the facts here; I do remember reading that now. The lineup would have to be by proper protocol to be acceptable.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I don't know what planet you are on but you are clearly up in the air with your posts.

Swanson is categoric in the marginalia that Kosminski was positively identified as the Ripper despite there being no corroboration to this mythical ID procedure

The police in 1895 clearly suspected Grainger could have been the ripper because it would seem they carried out an ID procedure, would they have done that if Kosminski had been positively identified as the Ripper as the marginalia leads us to believe? And when this murder in 1895 which the police thought was the work of the Ripper took place, I would suggest the first thing the police would have done would have been to check on their own Ripper (Kosminski) to make sure he was still incarcerated, so Swanson would have known that he was not dead in 1895.

The marginalia is unsafe!!!!!!!!!!

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That last argument is excellent, assuming the newspaper report about the identification attempt was correct.

It seems that it was, since no one has ever come across a police denial of it.

Moreover, the report about Swanson's belief that the Whitechapel Murderer was dead was published nearly three months after Grainger's arrest, which means he had already had reason to check whether Kosminski was still incarcerated during the three months before he made his statement.

Someone has pointed out - with apologies if it was you - that the police would surely have checked from time to time that Kosminski was still safely caged in an asylum - for the protection of public - assuming, of course, that they really believed that Kosminski was the murderer.

How, then, could Swanson have failed to know that Kosminski was very much alive in 1910?

He had retired about seven years before, but could easily have kept in touch with developments at Scotland Yard.

Abberline did, and insisted that he would have known of any development in the case had there been any since his retirement.