The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?

[Darryl Kenyon]

If Kosminski is a decent suspect,

Why is there no evidence that he became a suspect prior to his incarceration in an asylum and - on the contrary - evidence that it was only after he was incarcerated that he did become a suspect?

He was put in an asylum after the ID . Anderson omitted that part about before from his book . You have been told this time and again.

Why is there no evidence that any possibly incriminating evidence was ever found in any search of his home - e.g. the clothing described by Lawende?

Have you never heard of a murderer getting rid of the clothing he committed the killing in ?

Why is there no evidence to support Anderson's and Swanson's claims of a connection between Kosminski's incarceration or identification and the cessation of the
murders?

It is obvious that they mean no more murders where committed by Jack after Kosminski was put in an asylum . Dennis Radar for instance could go years between murders

Why is there no record of the name of the person who allegedly identified him as the murderer - and can you mention any other murder case in which the decisive part in proving the guilt of a suspect is played by an unidentified person?

If Lawende was the witness and he was named so , would there not be fear of recrimations against him ?

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

The fact that he talks about non-detection of the murderer without any qualification suggests that the murderer was still undetected.

If Anderson believed in 1908 that it was a definitely ascertained fact that the Whitechapel Murderer was a certain Polish Jew, why did he talk about the non-detection of the murderer?

Why did he not say,

I cannot accept responsibility for non-detection of the author of the Ripper crimes - because I did in fact detect him!

I suggest it is quite clear that Anderson is implying that, whenever the conversation took place, the murderer was still undetected.

Anderson 1895 - Anderson has a perfectly plausible theory that he was a homicidal maniac now in asylum

Anderson 1901 - Before the mania seized him or after he had been put in an asylum

Anderson 1907 - safely caged in an asylum

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I more or less agree with you on Anderson Abby. But I cannot get over the fact it is what Swanson pretty much wrote as well [ that's not to say I am sure Kosminski is the ripper, more a decent suspect ]. Swanson was a man who was the eyes and ears of the force regarding the murders. And a man who kept his thoughts on the case just about to himself . It is likely he concurred with Anderson, and must have had is own reasoning for doing so.

Regards Darryl

If Kosminski is a decent suspect,

Why is there no evidence that he became a suspect prior to his incarceration in an asylum and - on the contrary - evidence that it was only after he was incarcerated that he did become a suspect?

Why is there no evidence that any possibly incriminating evidence was ever found in any search of his home - e.g. the clothing described by Lawende?

Why is there no evidence to support Anderson's and Swanson's claims of a connection between Kosminski's incarceration or identification and the cessation of the murders?

Why is there no record of the name of the person who allegedly identified him as the murderer - and can you mention any other murder case in which the decisive part in proving the guilt of a suspect is played by an unidentified person?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Chief Inspector Donald Sutherland Swanson (1848 - 1924) was the man who was placed in overall charge of the Whitechapel murders police investigation on the 7th of September 1888. He would remain at the helm of the investigation until the 6th of October, 1888

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Statement by Sadler taken by Chief Inspector Swanson MET police CID Scotland Yard 14 Feb 1891. Mepo file 3/140 for example

[Trevor Marriott]

So Swanson wasn't directly involved in trying to find the killer ?

Chief Inspector Donald Sutherland Swanson (1848 - 1924) was the man who was placed in overall charge of the Whitechapel murders police investigation on the 7th of September 1888. He would remain at the helm of the investigation until the 6th of October, 1888

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If you do not believe it was a recent conversation but Anderson reminiscing about an exchange, [ possibly from Sept 1888, JTR A-Z] how on earth does that mean he believed that now. IE He had no idea who Jack was in 1908. He is either talking about a recent conversation IE present tense, or one from years ago IE past tense.
You can't have it both ways PI

Regards Darryl

The fact that he talks about non-detection of the murderer without any qualification suggests that the murderer was still undetected.

If Anderson believed in 1908 that it was a definitely ascertained fact that the Whitechapel Murderer was a certain Polish Jew, why did he talk about the non-detection of the murderer?

Why did he not say,

I cannot accept responsibility for non-detection of the author of the Ripper crimes - because I did in fact detect him!

I suggest it is quite clear that Anderson is implying that, whenever the conversation took place, the murderer was still undetected.

[Darryl Kenyon]

But those thoughts you refer to could only have been generated as a result of the police investigation and as I keep saying none of those officers who were directly involved in that investigation makes any mention of Kosminski or an ID procedure

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So Swanson wasn't directly involved in trying to find the killer ?

[Trevor Marriott]

I more or less agree with you on Anderson Abby. But I cannot get over the fact it is what Swanson pretty much wrote as well [ that's not to say I am sure Kosminski is the ripper, more a decent suspect ]. Swanson was a man who was the eyes and ears of the force regarding the murders. And a man who kept his thoughts on the case just about to himself . It is likely he concurred with Anderson, and must have had is own reasoning for doing so.

Regards Darryl

But those thoughts you refer to could only have been generated as a result of the police investigation and as I keep saying none of those officers who were directly involved in that investigation makes any mention of Kosminski or an ID procedure

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Darryl Kenyon]

the ID obviously grew into something over the years in Andersons head that it wasnt when it happened. Lawende probably said something alomg the lines of it looks like him but i cant swear to it. as time went on, along with andersons rather boastful nature and or slipping memory it changed to him convincing himself he had solved the case and knew who the ripper was.
It really is as simple as that.

I more or less agree with you on Anderson Abby. But I cannot get over the fact it is what Swanson pretty much wrote as well [ that's not to say I am sure Kosminski is the ripper, more a decent suspect ]. Swanson was a man who was the eyes and ears of the force regarding the murders. And a man who kept his thoughts on the case just about to himself . It is likely he concurred with Anderson, and must have had is own reasoning for doing so.

Regards Darryl

[Abby Normal]

the ID obviously grew into something over the years in Andersons head that it wasnt when it happened. Lawende probably said something alomg the lines of it looks like him but i cant swear to it. as time went on, along with andersons rather boastful nature and or slipping memory it changed to him convincing himself he had solved the case and knew who the ripper was.
It really is as simple as that.

[Darryl Kenyon]

That is not true.

I did not believe it to be a recent conversation.

Why should I have?

Anderson indicated that the conversation was not recent and, contrary to your assertion, I did read the article before citing it.

If you do not believe it was a recent conversation but Anderson reminiscing about an exchange, [ possibly from Sept 1888, JTR A-Z] how on earth does that mean he believed that now. IE He had no idea who Jack was in 1908. He is either talking about a recent conversation IE present tense, or one from years ago IE past tense.
You can't have it both ways PI

Regards Darryl

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

And this from someone who mentions an article from 1908 believing it to be a recent conversation of Anderson's with someone who had been dead for four years

That is not true.

I did not believe it to be a recent conversation.

Why should I have?

Anderson indicated that the conversation was not recent and, contrary to your assertion, I did read the article before citing it.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

As has been pointed out to you by others PI Swanson did not need to name dates etc Who was he expecting to read it. This was not a published HO document.

PS When are you going to admit you are wrong . I have pointed out to you that Harcourt was dead in 1908 . Anderson was recalling a tale from years earlier that is fact . When are you going to accept this .

Regards Darryl

I wrote:

Anderson stated in September 1908 that he would not accept responsibility for the fact that the murderer was not identified.

He said:

I told Sir William Harcourt, who was then Home Secretary, that I could not accept responsibility
for non-detection of the author of the Ripper crimes ...

He made that statement in 1908.

He made a statement in 1908 about not accepting responsibility.

The word would can refer both to the past and present, e.g. I would not go to the ball (to which I was invited) or I would not go to the ball (even if I were invited).

The same goes for could, although a distinction is made in German.

I did not make any mistake.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Perhaps you should have checked first regarding Harcourt before stating that Anderson said the murders where unsolved in 1908 . Not forgetting the fact that at least since 1895 Anderson had been alluding otherwise . Or was it a simple mistake you made like Anderson could have when recalling something from 20 yrs earlier regarding that interview.

Regards Darryl

I did read the article before citing it.


Anderson did say in 1908 that the murders were unsolved.


I do not think I made a mistake.

I wrote in # 610:

Anderson stated in 1892 that the murderer had not been identified and stated it again in 1908.


You then challenged me in # 616:

Please show me where this is concrete fact rather than your interpretation of interviews .


What he stated in 1908 was:

I told Sir William Harcourt, who was then Home Secretary, that I could not accept responsibility
for non-detection of the author of the Ripper crimes ...

He did say in 1908 that the murderer had not been identified.


My original statement, which you challenged, was therefore correct.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you're missing the point.

Swanson's loyalty to Anderson is admirable, but as I pointed out, he could not name names or give dates to back up anything Anderson had claimed.

The witness is unnamed.

False. He named Anderson's suspect as Kosminski.

Not a single policeman or witness to the transportation, identification or surveillance of Kosminski is given.

There is nothing to support the contention that Swanson was relating anything with which he had any personal familiarity and much to suggest he was not.

He cannot get the name of the workhouse right and he gets Kosminski's date of death wrong by about three decades, compared with which my slip about a former Home Secretary looks insignificant - but I suppose it depends on what you're looking for.

Worst of all, Swanson thinks the murders stopped because Kosminski was identified, whereas we know that he was walking a dog in the City of London more than a year later.

False. Swanson simply pointed out that there were no more murders after the identification. Something which was undoubtedly true.

Swanson swallowed Anderson's tale and Anderson himself gave away the fact it was nothing more than a tale when he had to remove all mention of Kosminski's incarceration.

He said in 1892 the murderer had not been identified

False. Anderson said no such thing in 1892. Your comprehension skills are appalling. As has already been pointed out to you, a journalist wrote that the crimes were "still undiscovered

and confirmed it in 1908 and then announced in 1910 that he had known his identity all along.

False. In 1908 he complained that he hadn't been able to obtain the clues to secure "the proof of the identity of the assassin" and that he, therefore, "could not accept responsibility for non-detection of the Ripper crimes."

You conveniently skip over the fact that in 1895, Arthur Griffiths stated that Anderson, "has a perfectly plausible theory that the perpetrator of the Whitechapel murders was a homicidal maniac, temporarily at large, whose hideous career was cut short by committal to an asylum"and that in 1901 he was reported as saying that JTR "had been safely caged in an asylum".


The whole Anderson-Swanson story has been exposed as another Anderson's fairy tale.

Nothing has been "exposed" by your nitpicking, and we return to the absurdity, which you cannot explain, of why Swanson would have written a "fairy tale" in his own private notes in a personal copy of a book which he is not known to have shown to a living soul.