The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah, the broken pipe! This brings back memories! I wrote up a bit on this many years ago, and my take on this can be found in the dissertations here if you are interested.

- Jeff

Good article Jeff. Obviously if Anderson was conflating in his mind in 1908 the McKenzie clay pipe with the Kelly pipe and thought in 1908 that a pipe had been smashed in Kelly's fireplace, he could still (wrongly) have thought it might have implicated Kosminski in the JTR murders if Kosminski was known to smoke a clay pipe.

So it doesn't get us anywhere but, of course, what I've been saying repeatedly is that Anderson wasn't thinking of Kosminski in 1908, he was simply putting forward two feeble excuses for why his department hadn't been able to arrest and convict the Ripper, meaning that the clay pipe is irrelevant to the question of the Seaside Home investigation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Anderson fantasised about a broken pipe in Kelly's room.

You not only support him but speculate that Kosminski smoked a clay pipe.

And then, when I dispute both Anderson's and your unsubstantiated nonsense about pipes, you complain that I am mentioning pipes too much.

Since you seem to be an expert on Yiddish, you may be familiar with the word 'chutspah.'

Utterly false. It was you who posited this in #666 when you said:

"If Anderson thought that the destruction of evidence in Goulston Street and supposed destruction of evidence in Dorset Street had wrecked the chances of solving the case, then that means the murderer couldn't spell the word Jews and smoked a clay pipe."


I had already made clear to you that you were missing the point because Anderson's 1908 interview had nothing to do with Kosminski but added, in #667, that what you were saying, in any event, was utterly ridiculous. You wanted to know why you were being utterly ridiculous. I told you it was because we can't (and you can't) eliminate the possibility that Kosminski smoked a clay pipe.

So I'm not speculating anything. I was explaining to you, at your request, that we don't know if he did or did not smoke a pipe which is why it's not possible to say that the pipe wouldn't have incriminated Kosminski.

Once again, it's your failure of comprehension which leads to this discussion going round and round in circles with you obsessing endlessly over an entirely irrelevant object and wasting everyone's time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah, the broken pipe! This brings back memories! I wrote up a bit on this many years ago, and my take on this can be found in the dissertations here if you are interested.

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff, I don’t think that I’ve read that but I certain will now.

[DJA]

Nope.

[JeffHamm]

...

You say that no clay pipe was found in Kelly's room but that's not actually true. Abberline testified at Kelly's inquest that a man's clay pipe was found in Kelly's room. If a doctor had picked up another pipe and smashed it in the fireplace, this fact might have been hushed up. We cannot say for certain.
...

Ah, the broken pipe! This brings back memories! I wrote up a bit on this many years ago, and my take on this can be found in the dissertations here if you are interested.

- Jeff

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Actually, the issue is: "The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?".

Nothing to do with pipes, really.

Anderson fantasised about a broken pipe in Kelly's room.

You not only support him but speculate that Kosminski smoked a clay pipe.

And then, when I dispute both Anderson's and your unsubstantiated nonsense about pipes, you complain that I am mentioning pipes too much.

Since you seem to be an expert on Yiddish, you may be familiar with the word 'chutspah.'

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you're evading the issue, which is that there is evidence that the only pipe found in the room belonged to Kelly's boyfriend.

There is no evidence to support Anderson's claim that a broken pipe was found in the fireplace.

You have had to suggest the existence of a second pipe in order to accommodate Anderson's fantasy, in addition to the clay pipe you speculate was smoked by Kosminski, and Alice MacKenzie's clay pipe.

That's a lot of pipes.

Actually, the issue is: "The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?".

Nothing to do with pipes, really.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

"He thought a clay pipe was found in Kelly's room. None was found."

Was this you?

Strange, because you just now posted:

"There was a man's clay pipe in the room"

Tsk. Who can we trust in this world?

I think you're evading the issue, which is that there is evidence that the only pipe found in the room belonged to Kelly's boyfriend.

There is no evidence to support Anderson's claim that a broken pipe was found in the fireplace.

You have had to suggest the existence of a second pipe in order to accommodate Anderson's fantasy, in addition to the clay pipe you speculate was smoked by Kosminski, and Alice MacKenzie's clay pipe.

That's a lot of pipes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

"He thought a clay pipe was found in Kelly's room. None was found."

Was this you?

Strange, because you just now posted:

"There was a man's clay pipe in the room"

Tsk. Who can we trust in this world?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

Robert Anderson ... knew more about the case than you ever will.

Whereas you just think you know things, he actually did.

Abberline testified at Kelly's inquest that a man's clay pipe was found in Kelly's room. If a doctor had picked up another pipe and smashed it in the fireplace, this fact might have been hushed up. We cannot say for certain.


All you have succeeded in doing is confirming that Anderson is, as I stated, an unreliable source.


There was a man's clay pipe in the room, and Barnett informed me that he smoked it.

(TESTIMONY OF INSPECTOR ABBERLINE)


In two cases of that terrible series there were distinct clues destroyed - wiped out absolutely - clues that might very easily have secured for us proof of the identity of the assassin. In one case it was a clay pipe. Before we could get to the scene of the murder the doctor had taken it up, thrown it into the fire-place and smashed it beyond recognition.

(ANDERSON, SEPTEMBER 1908)


Another of Anderson's Fairy Tales.



In jabbering away about clay pipes and Rose Mylett (wot?), you are losing sight of the big picture which is that the head of CID named a Polish Jew as his prime suspect, because he had been identified by a witness, and the Chief Inspector of CID confirmed the identification and records that the suspect was Kosminski. That's all there is to it.

Nothing you say is ever going to change this.



Nothing you say is going to change the fact that there is not a shred of actual evidence to substantiate your claim that a Polish Jew was identified as the Whitechapel Murderer by a witness, unless you mean the identification of John Piser, who was subsequently cleared by the police.

Piser just happens to have been 'unhesitatingly identified', just like the fictional suspect in Anderson's Fairy Tale Chapter IX.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Some readers may wonder why you are talking about Kosminski smoking a clay pipe at all and whether it actually matters whether I mistakenly thought Anderson was referring to Alice McKenzie's pipe.

There is no evidence that Kosminski smoked at all, let alone that he smoked a distinctive type of clay pipe.

There is, however, considerable evidence of Anderson's confusion about what happened.

He confused the political party allegiances of senior politicians.

He was called a fantasist by Winston Churchill.

He thought he had discussed the murders with a former Home Secretary, even though he had been Home Secretary only before the murders happened.

He claimed that the police deduced that the Whitechapel Murderer did not live alone.
That is not true.

He claimed further that the police therefore deduced that the murderer had to be Jewish.
That is not true, either.

He insisted that Rose Mylett died of natural causes, even though he knew that two post-mortems established the cause of her death as strangulation.

He thought a clay pipe was found in Kelly's room. None was found.

He claimed that Kosminski was already permanently incarcerated in an asylum at a time when he, Anderson, was trying to put him on trial for murder.

It is obvious that Anderson is an entirely unreliable source of information about what really happened.

Robert Anderson was the head of the CID at Scotland Yard, which meant he was the individual to whom all police reports filed at Scotland Yard about the Whitechapel murders investigation were addressed, including those which have been lost to us. He thus knew more about the case than you ever will.

Whereas you just think you know things, he actually did.

You say that no clay pipe was found in Kelly's room but that's not actually true. Abberline testified at Kelly's inquest that a man's clay pipe was found in Kelly's room. If a doctor had picked up another pipe and smashed it in the fireplace, this fact might have been hushed up. We cannot say for certain.

Anyway, I've already told you that Anderson wasn't speaking of Kosminski in 1908. He was giving feeble excuses for why he hadn't found the proof to convict JTR. The only reason we're even discussing clay pipes was because of your absurd and unfounded suggestion that Kosminski couldn't possibly have smoked one.

In jabbering away about clay pipes and Rose Mylett (wot?), you are losing sight of the big picture which is that the head of CID named a Polish Jew as his prime suspect, because he had been identified by a witness, and the Chief Inspector of CID confirmed the identification and records that the suspect was Kosminski. That's all there is to it.

Nothing you say is ever going to change this.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I'm pretty sure that Alice McKenzie's clay pipe was never thrown into the fireplace by the doctor, which is what Anderson says of that pipe, so your assumption that he was talking about her pipe would seem to be misplaced (especially as in your #666 you referred to "supposed destruction of evidence at Dorset Street" showing that you are now arguing in pure bad faith).

But thank you for confirming that you have literally no idea whether Kosminski could have penned the writing on the wall nor whether he smoked a distinctive clay pipe. That's precisely why I described your points in #664 and #665 as utterly ridiculous.

Some readers may wonder why you are talking about Kosminski smoking a clay pipe at all and whether it actually matters whether I mistakenly thought Anderson was referring to Alice McKenzie's pipe.

There is no evidence that Kosminski smoked at all, let alone that he smoked a distinctive type of clay pipe.

There is, however, considerable evidence of Anderson's confusion about what happened.

He confused the political party allegiances of senior politicians.

He was called a fantasist by Winston Churchill.

He thought he had discussed the murders with a former Home Secretary, even though he had been Home Secretary only before the murders happened.

He claimed that the police deduced that the Whitechapel Murderer did not live alone.
That is not true.

He claimed further that the police therefore deduced that the murderer had to be Jewish.
That is not true, either.

He insisted that Rose Mylett died of natural causes, even though he knew that two post-mortems established the cause of her death as strangulation.

He thought a clay pipe was found in Kelly's room. None was found.

He claimed that Kosminski was already permanently incarcerated in an asylum at a time when he, Anderson, was trying to put him on trial for murder.

It is obvious that Anderson is an entirely unreliable source of information about what really happened.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

I'm pretty sure that Alice McKenzie's clay pipe was never thrown into the fireplace by the doctor, which is what Anderson says of that pipe, so your assumption that he was talking about her pipe would seem to be misplaced (especially as in your #666 you referred to "supposed destruction of evidence at Dorset Street" showing that you are now arguing in pure bad faith).

But thank you for confirming that you have literally no idea whether Kosminski could have penned the writing on the wall nor whether he smoked a distinctive clay pipe. That's precisely why I described your points in #664 and #665 as utterly ridiculous.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Please see my replies below.

Ignore - posted on the wrong thread.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

No. You must be imagining things.

What I'm saying is that he was a Polish Jew who could quite easily have been able to write a limited amount of English in a competent manner, like many Polish Jews could in England in the 1880s, and that, at the same time, as a foreigner, he might easily have mistakenly spelt the word "Jews" as "Juwes", or he might have done so deliberately.


Can you cite the case of a Jewish person living in England who knew English well enough to spell words such as 'blamed' and 'nothing' correctly, yet was unable to spell the name of his own people?

It is obvious that the message was written by a gentile.



Do you have any idea how competent Kosminski was in writing English?


No.

And neither do you, which means you cannot say that he was able to spell words such as 'blamed' and 'nothing' correctly.

And if he could not, then he could not have written the message.

According to the report we have, nearly 15 months after the graffito was written in Goulston Street, Kosminski said 'I goes' instead of 'I go'.

How competent would you call that?



He might also have smoked a distinctive type of clay pipe. Do you have any idea whether he did or did not do so?


The clay pipe was reportedly smoked by Alice McKenzie, not Kosminski.

Next, I suppose you will be suggesting that she spoke Yiddish and her real name was McKosminski.



All the rest seems to have come from your imagination, having nothing to do with what Anderson said in 1908.


As you well know, 'all the rest' comes from posters on this forum, playing the same game as you are playing, making fanciful suggestions about Kosminski, on the ground that they cannot be disproved, even though they are completely unsupported by the evidence we have and even contradicted by it.