The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If we read between the lines, we find Henry Smith SCREAMING (in his autobiography) that Anderson's suspect was Joseph Lawende. It's hard to interpret the discourse between himself and Anderson in any other way (IMO).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I would advise anyone to read the actual lines written by Sir Henry Smith, in which he rubbished everything Anderson said about the Jews and dismissed his allegation that the Jews prevented the Whitechapel Murderer from being brought to justice.

[Tom_Wescott]

Assumption: That the witness had to be either Lawende or Schwartz. But what if he/she was someone else?

If we read between the lines, we find Henry Smith SCREAMING (in his autobiography) that Anderson's suspect was Joseph Lawende. It's hard to interpret the discourse between himself and Anderson in any other way (IMO).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Herlock Sholmes]

Of course Anderson was referring to Alice McKenzie's pipe, except that he did not realise he was doing so.

Alice McKenzie smoked a clay pipe, which was found near her body and subsequently broken, exactly what Anderson claims happened in the Kelly case.

Anyone can see that this is is just one of many examples of Anderson's confusion around the time of his life when he started making defamatory statements about Polish Jews.

Yet your reaction is to suggest that in addition to the intact pipe found in Kelly's room, which was claimed by her boyfriend, there was another clay pipe, which could have been broken, and could have belonged to Kosminski.

And you say the points I make are utterly ridiculous??

It's always fun to watch you misrepresent what I've posted but, that aside, can you please remind me what Inspector Abberline's report to ACC in November 1888 said about items found in Kelly's room and in the fireplace?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I'm pretty sure that Alice McKenzie's clay pipe was never thrown into the fireplace by the doctor, which is what Anderson says of that pipe, so your assumption that he was talking about her pipe would seem to be misplaced (especially as in your #666 you referred to "supposed destruction of evidence at Dorset Street" showing that you are now arguing in pure bad faith).

But thank you for confirming that you have literally no idea whether Kosminski could have penned the writing on the wall nor whether he smoked a distinctive clay pipe. That's precisely why I described your points in #664 and #665 as utterly ridiculous.

Of course Anderson was referring to Alice McKenzie's pipe, except that he did not realise he was doing so.

Alice McKenzie smoked a clay pipe, which was found near her body and subsequently broken, exactly what Anderson claims happened in the Kelly case.

Anyone can see that this is is just one of many examples of Anderson's confusion around the time of his life when he started making defamatory statements about Polish Jews.

Yet your reaction is to suggest that in addition to the intact pipe found in Kelly's room, which was claimed by her boyfriend, there was another clay pipe, which could have been broken, and could have belonged to Kosminski.

And you say the points I make are utterly ridiculous??

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Anderson thought that the GSG and an alleged broken clay pipe in Kelly's room were key pieces of evidence in the case and, moreover, that Kosminski was the murderer, you don't need to be a detective to work out that Kosminski must have written the GSG and smoked a clay pipe.

Maybe you're having comprehension difficulties today, like every other day, but I thought I had made my position perfectly clear that Anderson did NOT genuinely think that the CSG and the broken clay pipe were "key pieces of evidence" and that he put forward feeble excuses in 1908 to try and explain his department's failure to arrest and convict Jack the Ripper.

Just humour me a moment and assume for the sake of argument, that Kosminski was always Anderson's prime suspect. He would have known full well in 1908 that he didn't have any good excuse for the failure of the CID to arrest and convict Kosminksi in 1888. It was an abject failure by his own department and thus by him personally. But he could hardly say this.

And let's also assume for for the sake of argument that he was frustrated by the failure of a Jewish witness to give evidence against Kosminski. Well, sure, he could have said this in 1908 but not only would that have been highly controversial (as it would prove to be two years later) but he might have wanted to save this exclusive (and possibly commercially lucrative) story for Blackwoods magazine and for his book. Why give away that big story to the Daily Chronicle?

So what I'm saying is that the Daily Chronicle article is irrelevant and not worthy of this extended discussion. It goes to a different point whereby he was trying to excuse his department's failure without having to controversially blame a Jewish person for that failure. This would come later and would be corroborated by Swanson.

But I have to add - because you compel me to do so - that it is entirely possible that Kosminski wrote the CSG and smoked a clay pipe because we don't have any evidence to assist us either way, so that part of your sentence remains as utterly ridiculous as it was when you first wrote it.


Now if you don't understand any of this, there is very little I am able to do for you.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I supposed they might have been perplexed, had I ever made any such repeated denials about what Anderson was doing "whenever" he was talking about catching the murderer.

Whereas, what I actually said was that on a single occasion in 1908, what he was doing in the Daily Chronicle article was putting forward some feeble excuses for his department's failure to arrest and convict Jack the Ripper which had absolutely nothing to do with his long held belief that Kosminski was Jack the Ripper.

If Anderson thought that the GSG and an alleged broken clay pipe in Kelly's room were key pieces of evidence in the case and, moreover, that Kosminski was the murderer, you don't need to be a detective to work out that Kosminski must have written the GSG and smoked a clay pipe.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Other readers may be perplexed, as I am, to read your repeated denials that whenever Anderson was talking about catching the murderer, he was pointing the finger at Kosminski.

This comes as a great relief to those of us who have never believed any of the so-called evidence against the Polish Jew, but would obviously have left Swanson at a considerable loss.

I supposed they might have been perplexed, had I ever made any such repeated denials about what Anderson was doing "whenever" he was talking about catching the murderer.

Whereas, what I actually said was that on a single occasion in 1908, what he was doing in the Daily Chronicle article was putting forward some feeble excuses for his department's failure to arrest and convict Jack the Ripper which had absolutely nothing to do with his long held belief that Kosminski was Jack the Ripper.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Utterly false. It was you who posited this in #666 when you said:

"If Anderson thought that the destruction of evidence in Goulston Street and supposed destruction of evidence in Dorset Street had wrecked the chances of solving the case, then that means the murderer couldn't spell the word Jews and smoked a clay pipe."


I had already made clear to you that you were missing the point because Anderson's 1908 interview had nothing to do with Kosminski but added, in #667, that what you were saying, in any event, was utterly ridiculous. You wanted to know why you were being utterly ridiculous. I told you it was because we can't (and you can't) eliminate the possibility that Kosminski smoked a clay pipe.

So I'm not speculating anything. I was explaining to you, at your request, that we don't know if he did or did not smoke a pipe which is why it's not possible to say that the pipe wouldn't have incriminated Kosminski.

Once again, it's your failure of comprehension which leads to this discussion going round and round in circles with you obsessing endlessly over an entirely irrelevant object and wasting everyone's time.

Other readers may be perplexed, as I am, to read your repeated denials that whenever Anderson was talking about catching the murderer, he was pointing the finger at Kosminski.

This comes as a great relief to those of us who have never believed any of the so-called evidence against the Polish Jew, but would obviously have left Swanson at a considerable loss.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah, the broken pipe! This brings back memories! I wrote up a bit on this many years ago, and my take on this can be found in the dissertations here if you are interested.

- Jeff

Good article Jeff. Obviously if Anderson was conflating in his mind in 1908 the McKenzie clay pipe with the Kelly pipe and thought in 1908 that a pipe had been smashed in Kelly's fireplace, he could still (wrongly) have thought it might have implicated Kosminski in the JTR murders if Kosminski was known to smoke a clay pipe.

So it doesn't get us anywhere but, of course, what I've been saying repeatedly is that Anderson wasn't thinking of Kosminski in 1908, he was simply putting forward two feeble excuses for why his department hadn't been able to arrest and convict the Ripper, meaning that the clay pipe is irrelevant to the question of the Seaside Home investigation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Anderson fantasised about a broken pipe in Kelly's room.

You not only support him but speculate that Kosminski smoked a clay pipe.

And then, when I dispute both Anderson's and your unsubstantiated nonsense about pipes, you complain that I am mentioning pipes too much.

Since you seem to be an expert on Yiddish, you may be familiar with the word 'chutspah.'

Utterly false. It was you who posited this in #666 when you said:

"If Anderson thought that the destruction of evidence in Goulston Street and supposed destruction of evidence in Dorset Street had wrecked the chances of solving the case, then that means the murderer couldn't spell the word Jews and smoked a clay pipe."


I had already made clear to you that you were missing the point because Anderson's 1908 interview had nothing to do with Kosminski but added, in #667, that what you were saying, in any event, was utterly ridiculous. You wanted to know why you were being utterly ridiculous. I told you it was because we can't (and you can't) eliminate the possibility that Kosminski smoked a clay pipe.

So I'm not speculating anything. I was explaining to you, at your request, that we don't know if he did or did not smoke a pipe which is why it's not possible to say that the pipe wouldn't have incriminated Kosminski.

Once again, it's your failure of comprehension which leads to this discussion going round and round in circles with you obsessing endlessly over an entirely irrelevant object and wasting everyone's time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah, the broken pipe! This brings back memories! I wrote up a bit on this many years ago, and my take on this can be found in the dissertations here if you are interested.

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff, I don’t think that I’ve read that but I certain will now.

[DJA]

Nope.

[JeffHamm]

...

You say that no clay pipe was found in Kelly's room but that's not actually true. Abberline testified at Kelly's inquest that a man's clay pipe was found in Kelly's room. If a doctor had picked up another pipe and smashed it in the fireplace, this fact might have been hushed up. We cannot say for certain.
...

Ah, the broken pipe! This brings back memories! I wrote up a bit on this many years ago, and my take on this can be found in the dissertations here if you are interested.

- Jeff

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Actually, the issue is: "The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?".

Nothing to do with pipes, really.

Anderson fantasised about a broken pipe in Kelly's room.

You not only support him but speculate that Kosminski smoked a clay pipe.

And then, when I dispute both Anderson's and your unsubstantiated nonsense about pipes, you complain that I am mentioning pipes too much.

Since you seem to be an expert on Yiddish, you may be familiar with the word 'chutspah.'

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you're evading the issue, which is that there is evidence that the only pipe found in the room belonged to Kelly's boyfriend.

There is no evidence to support Anderson's claim that a broken pipe was found in the fireplace.

You have had to suggest the existence of a second pipe in order to accommodate Anderson's fantasy, in addition to the clay pipe you speculate was smoked by Kosminski, and Alice MacKenzie's clay pipe.

That's a lot of pipes.

Actually, the issue is: "The Seaside Home: Could Schwartz or Lawende Have Put the Ripper's Neck in a Noose?".

Nothing to do with pipes, really.