What 5 Questions Would You Like Answered?

[lynn cates]

inter-femoral

Hello CFL.

"But apparently the usual method for this style of prostitution was NOT penetration, but the woman using her thighs to get the guy off."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Bored of the Rings

Extracts from evidence presented at Inquest of Annie Chapman as reported in the The Times on various dates:-

Dr George Bagster Phillips "There was an abrasion over the ring finger, with distinct markings of a ring or rings"

Eliza Cooper "That was the last time she saw the deceased alive. At that time she was wearing three rings on the third finger of the left hand, Deceased bought the rings, which were brass ones, of a black man. Deceased had never possessed a gold wedding ring since witness had become acquainted with her. She had known witness for about 15 years....."

Edward Stanley "He last saw her alive on Sunday, the 2d inst., between 1 and 3 o'clock in the afternoon. At that time she was wearing two rings on one of her fingers. One was a flat ring and the other oval. He should think they were brass ones"

The Coroner (summing up) "There were two things missing. Her rings had been wrenched from her fingers and had not since been found, and...."

"...and the theft of the rings was only a thin veiled blind, an attempt to prevent the real intention being discovered."

Leaving aside the Coroner's somewhat skewed conclusions regarding motive, what's left in dispute about the rings? They were there (whether two or three), they were probably brass or something equally cheap, they were removed, in all probability by the killer and they then disappeared from view, (unless you credit the refence to two brass rings being found in Tumblety's effects)...

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

I would say that there is far more evidence that the killer of Polly, Annie and Kate sought satisfaction from mutilating sexual organs rather than from any conventional sex act, therefore its not surprising that there is no evidence of "connection" in these cases. I would also add that the only case where any evidence of connection would not be identifiable would be with Mary Kelly.

When a purely speculatory explanation for these crimes is favored over analysis of the investigative data its hard to imagine that anyone will solve anything to anyones satisfaction. Ive been a proponent of some kind of standard of proof regarding the assimilation of possible victims under one killer, yet many people still seem to prefer to believe in boogeymen.

There has been many offhand dismissals of others who have put forward ideas that do not follow the traditional serial killer of the Canonical Group mantra without any recognition of the glass house that premise is. Its a guess....and some of you have taken it as gospel.

Well...it just goes to show you that having a belief in something can cloud the ability to properly understand what the actual truth is....and people who believe in the serial killer of the Canonical group share a great deal with people who believe in Bigfoot. Or the Yeti. They will choose to believe what they believe no matter what the evidence doesnt state clearly.

If you believe in the serial killer of five...then you do so without any real evidence to support your argument. Thats a fact. Once you face that fact then perhaps you would be more generous to those of us who prefer proof over mere belief.

Cheers

[RivkahChaya]

Why should she have removed her rings? Or all her belongings for that matter? And if you have a ring on and I want it I'll have it. Seems not a large task for one who just murdered someone. And, I wonder if the lack of blood in the body might have aided a stubborn rings removal?

There's a "trick," if you will, to removing a correctly sized ring. You have to push it up on the fat pad on the underside of the finger, and then pull it over the knuckle.

A women living on my floor in a building in Manhattan had a fight with the guy she was engaged to, and he tried to pull the ring off her finger. It didn't come off, and because he wrenched her finger and it started to swell, she then couldn't get it off. There was screaming and thudding against the walls, and I ended up calling 911. Someone else used bolt-cutters to get the ring off, and then the boyfriend tried to sue her for the devaluation of the ring, and in the meantime, she had a restraining order against him.

I covered that in my previous reply. Given that the post-mortem occurred almost 20+ hours after her last probable connection time, given a quick wipe and time passing, it is entirely likely there would have been no evidence of sex to be seen. Which is not to say it hadn't been had.

No ejaculation doesn't mean no penetration. Some men can't, umm, finish, if they're nervous, and maybe he withdrew on purpose. I don't know why, since it wouldn't be for birth control or counter-forensics.

I don't know much about how syphilis spreads, but if it's anything like HIV, it's really difficult for women to transmit to men; however, one way men can "get it" from a prostitute is from her servicing more than one man in an evening, so technically, an earlier client is giving it to a later one, the woman is just maintaining the viability of the infectious agent, which wouldn't survive in a colder, drier environment.

Since Mandy Patinkin's departure, I tend to agree.

One more TV show that can survive without Mandy Patinkin.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Lynn,

I'm figuring you aren't familiar with prostitutes and their transactions.

They take the money up front and pocket it. The rifling is a sign of retrieval.

Monty

This rifling you keep talking about where is the evidence to show that is what took place.

[Observer]

Indeed. One of those rare detectives who although incompetent always get their man. So perhaps there's hope for Lynch Eight et al after all. Hahahahaha

Regards

Observer

[DVV]

Isn't he an actor?

An excellent one.

And some play Clouseau !!!

Wasn't he a Frenchie ?

Cheers

[Observer]

Since Mandy Patinkin's departure, I tend to agree.

Isn't he an actor?

Although there are plenty in here who play Sherlock Holmes.

And some play Clouseau !!!

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Is that people like Shawcross that you're thinking about, Obs ?

Hi David

Arthur Shawcross is an example, although before he embarked on his second series of mayhem, he had commited rape.

Sutcilffe is a prime example, although it seems masturbation played a big part in his particular "jolly".

Regards

Observer

[Mr Lucky]

The five questions I would like answered;-

1) Where was "Church-row" ?
2) Was Church-row on PC Mizen beat ?
3) The women at the mortuary on Friday afternoon, 31 August 1888, who first told the world about Leather Apron - a man who lures women into houses and robs them - who were they referring to ?
4) Who was the suspect who lived near Buck's-row, as mentioned in the Echo 20 September 1888 ?
5) When Robert Paul first examined Nichols, did he detect faint movement because she was unconscious but still alive, or was it a sign 'that she was only just dead' ?

[DVV]

Criminal Minds

"And profiling DOES work- under other names it is the BASIS for logical thinking and the scientific method. Patterns DO exist and can be established and trends be predicted on the information"

Common sense works much more effectively

Since Mandy Patinkin's departure, I tend to agree.

[DVV]

The thing is none of the canonical five showed signs of penetration, and there are documented cases of serial murder where the act of murder, and mutilation, is sufficient for the perpetrator to "get off". It's not unreasonable to speculate that JTR belonged to this group of killers.

Observer

Is that people like Shawcross that you're thinking about, Obs ?

[Observer]

"And profiling DOES work- under other names it is the BASIS for logical thinking and the scientific method. Patterns DO exist and can be established and trends be predicted on the information"

Common sense works much more effectively

[DVV]

IF we just had the name ONLY, such as 'William Long', probably not. But if we knew that it was Druitt or Kosminski, to use a couple of examples, we already speculate about THEIR motives. We would be more certain and it would no longer just be specultion, but it would be backed up by actual facts.

As you say, we already speculate about their motives.

Take an example : the trophies.
We don't know how he used them.
And wouldn't know more if we were certain it was Druitt, Fleming or James Kelly.
We will be still speculating.

It may even work the other round : the ripper would tell us more about Druitt or Kelly. More than Druitt or Kelly would tell us about the ripper, I mean.

[Observer]

I did say apparently- I was not stating as established fact. I have seen in two different sources (Rumbelow and, I believe, Sugden- although I'm willing to be corrected if i mis-remember a source) mention that these sort of whores did use their thighs (also that rear-entry was preferred), and I believe that Ally mentions this earlier in this thread. Also, note my use of "usual", not "exclusively". Certainly if the customer preferred/demanded penetration,"give the customer what he wants, Deary". But most guys were plastered and just wanted to get get off. And the cost was probably the same. I don't think prostitutes at this low level had some sort of menu of rates for various services, although it may be possible. Many of the encounters were probably rougher and less enjoyable than the woman really would have preferred- bordering upon the MODERN definition of 'rape'. (Yes, Prostitutes can be raped.)

Someone who knows more about LVP prositution and general sex practices would have to join in. I am not an expert, and I do not pretend to be.

I'm no expert either in these matters. However, I know full well that prostitutes can indeed be raped, and I'd bet the anus was also checked out by the doctors for signs of penetration. Plastered men tend not to rise to the occasion so to speak, so it's wise perhaps to leave them out of the equation. The thing is none of the canonical five showed signs of penetration, and there are documented cases of serial murder where the act of murder, and mutilation, is sufficient for the perpetrator to "get off". It's not unreasonable to speculate that JTR belonged to this group of killers.

Regards

Observer