Whistling on Berner Street

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No. overwhelmingly the likeliest and most sensible explanation is that he was wrong about the time and that he heard Lamb blow his whistle when he was in the yard or that he heard Lamb blow his whistle, when Eagle found him, to attract the attention of the fixed point officer. Lamb would have had no reason to have mentioned this entirely trivial point.

Let's consider what is seriously being suggested here.

What does Mrs Diemschitz tell us occurred, after she first set eyes on the victim?

I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

What does Lamb tell us about the number of people in the yard, when he arrived?

I should think 20 or 30. Some of that number had followed me in.

So where was Abraham Herschburg, at this point? Well according to this theory he was still upstairs, and would remain so until Lamb blew his whistle. Only then did he come down to see what the matter was. So while all the other members had already gone into the yard, Herschburg remained upstairs, by himself. How bizarre. So how did Herschburg describe this commotion of people, in that small area, when he finally came down?

Two or three people had collected...

What did Lamb say about the proximity of those in the yard to the victim, when he arrived?

There was no one within a yard of it.

What did Lamb say about keeping it that way?

As I was examining the body some crowded round. I begged them to keep back, and told them they might get some of the blood on their clothing, and by that means get themselves into trouble.

What close-up details of the victim, did Herschburg describe?

She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous.

According to this theory, this was ascertained by Herschburg after Lamb blew his whistle. So under oath, Lamb failed to mention that he had allowed a 17 y/o to poke around the victim, without protest from himself. No doubt his failure to do so, was due to him considering this to be an entirely trivial point.

Your suggestion about the WVC, whilst not impossible, has no basis in evidence. They were only a relatively small band of men and so there’d have been untold streets not patrolled by them.

No basis in evidence? So tell me about Mr Harris ...

[Michael W Richards]

Funny that the club steward of this police described "anarchist club", .. arrested the next year for assaulting police in that same yard, the club speaker and the club likely unofficial photographer...all benefiting from income or housing from the club, all seem to suggest timings that cannot be accurate.

You keep making this point, Michael and while I can understand that no one wants to lose their job the reality is that these were low paying, shabby little jobs at a shabby little club. You want us to believe that they were the CEOs of major corporations or partners in a big New York law firm. They were certainly not the only jobs in Whitechapel and lying to police in a murder investigation was taking a big risk.

c.d.

You have one the one hand the local law officials referring casually to this club as an "anarchists" club and you have locals referring to men found there after Saturday evening meetings had ended as "low men", perhaps the only issue for them with this incident might not be the club remaining open. They might well be involved in activities that were unlawful. They sure as hell were 6 months later when they attacked the police with clubs, resulting in the arrest of a number of them.

As to another matter, .. "As you well know, Wess described the club as Socialist, under oath."...this member must not be aware that in a letter by Willam Morris, a friend of Wolff Wess's, he declined the invitation to speak at the club because his personal views didnt allign with "anarchist" ones.

Fanny by the by stood at her door from 12:50 until 1...paraphrasing her own statement..and went indoors just after 1. Louis did not approach or arrive during that period. Lets use the oft fired...well, their timing must have been off..If Fanny is correct then Lamb must have arrived just after 1am, and start the commotion that Fanny would hear from indoors around 1:04ish. To make Lamb possibly off by a minute is far better that suggesting that a number of corroborative accounts were off by 20 minutes, wouldnt you agree? The problem here is some would prefer the latter despite the evidence, which to me indicates some kind of belief system is finding their solutions, not the logical interpretation then application of the documented statements.

For all the hot air a blowin there is 1 fact that is incontrovertible, the statements given by all the witnesses as recorded cannot be used to construct an accurate timeline of events or of characters for the period from 12:35 until after 1am, when the police leave the scene, then are on scene again, respectively. They conflict, and many are not corroborated statements, which are always preferable initially.

Perhaps that same kind of simple logic applies to Israel Schwartz and his remarkable tale being omitted in its entirety from the Inquest, they couldnt prove or disprove anything he claimed,..not even that he was there in the first place. Only people we KNOW were at least there, by second hand sourcing, are used.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks for the info. So Herschburg's family name was indeed Ashbrigh?

What is your take on Louis Diemschitz being referred to in the press as 'Mr Lewis'? Is it possible the locals knew him by that name? Why 'Mr Lewis' and not 'Mr Louis'?

Interestingly, there was a club member of first name Lewis.

Wess: I went into the club and called my brother, and we went home together-going into the street together with Lewis Selzi, who lives close to us.

That’s how it was spelt on the census, but I would imagine it was something closer to Herschburg. Hearing Lewis as opposed to Louis might be the norm for Brits.

BTW, where do you get your age of 17 for Herschburg?
Going by the 1881 census he would have been 20.

[GBinOz]

The names Isaacs and Jacobs aren’t necessarily the same men. These aren’t scarce names George so that’s too tenuous to prove anything.

Look we’ve been going round in circles for ever and to be honest George I’m well passed tired of it. I can’t stop anyone thinking what they want to but Hoschberg was clearly wrong in the time that he gave. Not a smidgeon of doubt in my mind. We know what happened so why do we keep dragging this out?

Schwartz incident might or might not have been the killer. Stride’s killer might or might not have been the Ripper. Stride was killed 12.45-1.00. Fanny went onto her doorstep around 12.35 for around 10 minutes then went back inside missing the incident. Diemschitz found the body at 1.00 (accepting the possibility of clock variations) All silly newspaper rumours or nonsense about the use of the word ‘up’ or ‘down’ should be dismissed. Goldstein wasn’t involved in any way so can be ignored as irrelevant. We can learn nothing more so all ‘Berner Street’ threads have become Conspiracy City (and no, I’m not accusing you of being a conspiracy theorist George) There’s too much reading between the lines going going on. And some use this to further an agenda.

Berner Street sorted……way past time to move on.

Hi Herlock,

After Jeff presented his timeline based on Blackwell time he asked to see my timeline based on Police time and concluded that they were substantially in agreement. I thought that the "times" aspect had at that stage been fully addressed (did you read the timelines?).

On this tread, titled "whistling on berner street", the discussion was who might have blown the police whistle prior to the police being located. You presented two alternatives, the first of which was a re-statement of your standard "the time was wrong and can be dismissed". Both Hosch and Harris heard a whistle before the police had been located. Your second suggestion denies the whole purpose of police whistles, that being, as Lamb stated, to summon assistance. In your scenario the summoned constables would have converged on Commercial Road and found nobody there as Lamb and Ayliffe had departed.

Names on a list don't prove anything but, with all due respect, they present a more (I'll refrain from the superlatives) likely possibility than whistling at the wrong time or the wrong place.

While there is "between the lines reading" going on, some of which pushes my envelope of credibility, there is also a lot of repetitive "dismissing" occurring regarding times and language based entirely on speculation that supports a point of view. There is no round mark on my forehead where someone has held a gun and forced me to challenge and dismiss out of hand every opinion presented that may not be to my liking. I participate in forums to share ideas while accepting that others will have ideas, some of which will be highly speculative and some of which will be rusted on traditional. The middle ground is the productive area of discussion IMO.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As to another matter, .. "As you well know, Wess described the club as Socialist, under oath."...this member must not be aware that in a letter by Willam Morris, a friend of Wolff Wess's, he declined the invitation to speak at the club because his personal views didnt allign with "anarchist" ones.

Not the point. I was asking HS if he thought Wess had been totally forthcoming about the political nature of the club. Apparently you suppose that he was not.

Fanny by the by stood at her door from 12:50 until 1...paraphrasing her own statement..and went indoors just after 1. Louis did not approach or arrive during that period. Lets use the oft fired...well, their timing must have been off..If Fanny is correct then Lamb must have arrived just after 1am, and start the commotion that Fanny would hear from indoors around 1:04ish. To make Lamb possibly off by a minute is far better that suggesting that a number of corroborative accounts were off by 20 minutes, wouldnt you agree? The problem here is some would prefer the latter despite the evidence, which to me indicates some kind of belief system is finding their solutions, not the logical interpretation then application of the documented statements.

Lamb's arrival did not start the commotion. It would more correct to say that his arrival had the effect of ending the commotion.

FM: A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house.

That man was probably Ed Spooner. Like Herschburg, Fanny seems to have arrived just before the police did.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What time are you claiming that Fanny locked up? I thought that you were of the belief that she went onto her doorstep at 12.45?

Hard to say with any precision of course, but on balance - by which I mean when considering the various somewhat contradictory time related statements - I'd say she locked up about midway between 12:45 and 1:00.

And as someone who is apparently reluctant to accept reasonable margins for error then we have a potential clash. If Hoschberg got to the yard at 12.45 then the body must have been discovered slightly before that. Ie slightly before 12.45. So slightly before Fanny went onto her doorstep.

Which way do you want it? Just keep rearranging the goalposts.

What I want is for you to quote me saying that AH arrived at the yard, bang on 12:45. That is not what I suppose. Which part of this post don't you understand?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That’s how it was spelt on the census, but I would imagine it was something closer to Herschburg. Hearing Lewis as opposed to Louis might be the norm for Brits.

Maybe, but what's wrong with calling him 'Mr Diemschitz'?

BTW, where do you get your age of 17 for Herschburg?
Going by the 1881 census he would have been 20.

Your earlier post ...

Ah, yes, they were there in 1881. Nathan was a tailor and Abraham was recorded as being 10. He had a younger brother, Morris, 8, and three older sisters.

The head of the household in 1887 was a tailor and he had 1 daughter and two sons at work, so that could well be the same family.

10 + (1888 - 1881) = 17

----

Could you please locate a Joseph Koster in the census?

IT: About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut.

It's interesting that we are given an approximate time, age, his name and his whereabouts when he was 'accosted'. Yet if the story was found to be false, no later than about 6am in the morning of the murder, why do we ever hear of this individual?

[MrBarnett]

Maybe, but what's wrong with calling him 'Mr Diemschitz'?



Your earlier post ...



10 + (1888 - 1881) = 17

----

Could you please locate a Joseph Koster in the census?

IT: About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut.

It's interesting that we are given an approximate time, age, his name and his whereabouts when he was 'accosted'. Yet if the story was found to be false, no later than about 6am in the morning of the murder, why do we ever hear of this individual?

Duh! For some reason I was thinking of his age in 1891.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let's consider what is seriously being suggested here.

What does Mrs Diemschitz tell us occurred, after she first set eyes on the victim?

I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

What does Lamb tell us about the number of people in the yard, when he arrived?

I should think 20 or 30. Some of that number had followed me in.

So where was Abraham Herschburg, at this point? Well according to this theory he was still upstairs, and would remain so until Lamb blew his whistle. Only then did he come down to see what the matter was. So while all the other members had already gone into the yard, Herschburg remained upstairs, by himself. How bizarre. So how did Herschburg describe this commotion of people, in that small area, when he finally came down?

Two or three people had collected...

What did Lamb say about the proximity of those in the yard to the victim, when he arrived?

There was no one within a yard of it.

What did Lamb say about keeping it that way?

As I was examining the body some crowded round. I begged them to keep back, and told them they might get some of the blood on their clothing, and by that means get themselves into trouble.

What close-up details of the victim, did Herschburg describe?

She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous.

According to this theory, this was ascertained by Herschburg after Lamb blew his whistle. So under oath, Lamb failed to mention that he had allowed a 17 y/o to poke around the victim, without protest from himself. No doubt his failure to do so, was due to him considering this to be an entirely trivial point.



No basis in evidence? So tell me about Mr Harris ...

As the questions above are rhetorical I’ll ask a few that aren’t.

Why did only 2 people report hearing this alleged early whistle? Why didn’t Spooner hear it standing out on the street and yet Harris heard it from inside his house? Why did Hoschberg hear it but no one else in the club heard it? Even Fanny didn’t hear it and let’s face it, it’s been suggested that she couldn’t possibly have failed to hear the Schwincident (I’ve invented a new word) so how could she have not heard the Police whistle when Hoschberg heard it?

And then, why did Hoschberg hear a whistle at 12.45 and yet Spooner (in one of the 2 different times that he gave) heard it 10 minutes earlier?

Why isn’t it possible that another incident took place not far away in which a Constable blew a whistle? Would a minor incident have gotten a mention if it occurred at the same time as the murder or Stride?

Or why couldn’t some panicked WVC member have blown his whistle a few streets away for some totally unconnected reason? Or yes, there could have been a WVC member either already on the scene or nearby who blew his whistle but surely this would only have occurred after Diemschitz, Eagle and Koz had left for a Constable (as why run for a Constable when a whistle would have summoned one?) Another question of course is, if a whistle had been blown at 12.45 why was there no response to it? Why did no Constable report hearing a whistle at 12.45?

There might have been a whistle but even if there was we don’t know who sounded it or where they were at the time. All that we know is that strangely only 2 people out of several heard it and that it didn’t happen 12.45.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fanny by the by stood at her door from 12:50 until 1...

And for the 4,738th time you appear to need reminding that she also said that she went onto her doorstep just after she’d heard the Constable pass. The Constable in question could only have been Smith who said that he’d actually passed between 12.30-12.35.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You have one the one hand the local law officials referring casually to this club as an "anarchists" club and you have locals referring to men found there after Saturday evening meetings had ended as "low men", perhaps the only issue for them with this incident might not be the club remaining open. They might well be involved in activities that were unlawful. They sure as hell were 6 months later when they attacked the police with clubs, resulting in the arrest of a number of them.

As to another matter, .. "As you well know, Wess described the club as Socialist, under oath."...this member must not be aware that in a letter by Willam Morris, a friend of Wolff Wess's, he declined the invitation to speak at the club because his personal views didnt allign with "anarchist" ones.

Fanny by the by stood at her door from 12:50 until 1...paraphrasing her own statement..and went indoors just after 1. Louis did not approach or arrive during that period. Lets use the oft fired...well, their timing must have been off..If Fanny is correct then Lamb must have arrived just after 1am, and start the commotion that Fanny would hear from indoors around 1:04ish. To make Lamb possibly off by a minute is far better that suggesting that a number of corroborative accounts were off by 20 minutes, wouldnt you agree? The problem here is some would prefer the latter despite the evidence, which to me indicates some kind of belief system is finding their solutions, not the logical interpretation then application of the documented statements.

For all the hot air a blowin there is 1 fact that is incontrovertible, the statements given by all the witnesses as recorded cannot be used to construct an accurate timeline of events or of characters for the period from 12:35 until after 1am, when the police leave the scene, then are on scene again, respectively. They conflict, and many are not corroborated statements, which are always preferable initially.

Perhaps that same kind of simple logic applies to Israel Schwartz and his remarkable tale being omitted in its entirety from the Inquest, they couldnt prove or disprove anything he claimed,..not even that he was there in the first place. Only people we KNOW were at least there, by second hand sourcing, are used.

Eagle was corroborated by Gilleman and Diemschitz. The police could also have confirmed this by talking to his sweetheart and her family. Mrs D and the club servants corroborated the time of Diemschitz return. Spooner arrived around 5 minutes before Lamb and Lamb very obviously wasn’t informed about the body at 12.45 or before.

We’ve had timelines by Jeff and George. It’s over. Clearly you won’t accept this because you have an agenda which ludicrously requires all times to be taken as gospel. This is transparent bias. Are you going to spend the rest of your life defending a thoroughly discredited theory Michael? There’s still time to salvage a bit of self-respect by admitting that this plot is a complete fantasy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

After Jeff presented his timeline based on Blackwell time he asked to see my timeline based on Police time and concluded that they were substantially in agreement. I thought that the "times" aspect had at that stage been fully addressed (did you read the timelines?).

On this tread, titled "whistling on berner street", the discussion was who might have blown the police whistle prior to the police being located. You presented two alternatives, the first of which was a re-statement of your standard "the time was wrong and can be dismissed". Both Hosch and Harris heard a whistle before the police had been located. Your second suggestion denies the whole purpose of police whistles, that being, as Lamb stated, to summon assistance. In your scenario the summoned constables would have converged on Commercial Road and found nobody there as Lamb and Ayliffe had departed.

Names on a list don't prove anything but, with all due respect, they present a more (I'll refrain from the superlatives) likely possibility than whistling at the wrong time or the wrong place.

While there is "between the lines reading" going on, some of which pushes my envelope of credibility, there is also a lot of repetitive "dismissing" occurring regarding times and language based entirely on speculation that supports a point of view. There is no round mark on my forehead where someone has held a gun and forced me to challenge and dismiss out of hand every opinion presented that may not be to my liking. I participate in forums to share ideas while accepting that others will have ideas, some of which will be highly speculative and some of which will be rusted on traditional. The middle ground is the productive area of discussion IMO.

Cheers, George

Hello George,

As I said in a post above I can only ask why no one finds it strange that no one else heard these early police whistles. Spooner/Harris is a case in point. Harris heard it from inside his house but Spooner didn’t hear it standing out on the street.

I can’t help but think that a bit of ‘garbling’ of stories might have gone on here.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why did only 2 people report hearing this alleged early whistle? Why didn’t Spooner hear it standing out on the street and yet Harris heard it from inside his house? Why did Hoschberg hear it but no one else in the club heard it? Even Fanny didn’t hear it and let’s face it, it’s been suggested that she couldn’t possibly have failed to hear the Schwincident (I’ve invented a new word) so how could she have not heard the Police whistle when Hoschberg heard it?

How do you know people like Spooner and Mortimer didn't hear it? Herschburg said ...

There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested.

Did Smith respond to that incident, and blow his whistle for assistance? Perhaps Abraham heard this and 'came down to see what the matter was'. The point being, just because a witness doesn't mention every detail, or not every detail gets recorded and published, doesn't mean we can say who did and didn't hear certain things on that night.

And then, why did Hoschberg hear a whistle at 12.45 and yet Spooner (in one of the 2 different times that he gave) heard it 10 minutes earlier?

What are you talking about? Who has claimed either of these things?

Why isn’t it possible that another incident took place not far away in which a Constable blew a whistle? Would a minor incident have gotten a mention if it occurred at the same time as the murder or Stride?

Another police incident close by, and with near perfect 'timing'. Highly unlikely.

Or why couldn’t some panicked WVC member have blown his whistle a few streets away for some totally unconnected reason?

You seem to be dreaming up scenarios, to make this 'problem' go away.

Or yes, there could have been a WVC member either already on the scene or nearby who blew his whistle but surely this would only have occurred after Diemschitz, Eagle and Koz had left for a Constable (as why run for a Constable when a whistle would have summoned one?) Another question of course is, if a whistle had been blown at 12.45 why was there no response to it? Why did no Constable report hearing a whistle at 12.45?

It was soon after the discovery. You asked me in a recent post, what time I thought Mortimer had locked-up. I said probably between 12:45 and 1:00, and that the discovery occurred at or just past that point. So why do you keep going on about 12:45?

There might have been a whistle but even if there was we don’t know who sounded it or where they were at the time. All that we know is that strangely only 2 people out of several heard it and that it didn’t happen 12.45.

As I said, hearing it and reports of hearing it, are different things.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let’s remind ourselves of these so-called ‘corroborated’ witnesses shall we? Spooner, Hoschberg and Kozebrodski.

Spooner is the simplest to dismiss of course. Even in his own testimony he contradicts himself which isn’t the best of starts is it? If he arrived at the yard at 12.35 as he suggested then this would have meant a discovery time of close to 12.30. Is this likely? Do I need to ask? Would anyone suggest Lamb being summoned at around 12.35? Or that Brown was 25 minutes out when he heard en calling for a Constable? Or that Fanny was 30 minutes out when she heard Diemschitz arrive? Or even that Smith passing at 12.30-12.35 saw nothing of these events and heard no one calling for a Constable?

So this is just about as clear as can be. Spooners estimation of 12.35 at the yard (which doesn’t even corroborate but contradicts Hoschberg) can safely be sidelined as an error. The evidence for this is absolutely overwhelming. He arrived at the yard 5 minutes before Lamb arrived (yes we can quibble about the exact time of Lamb’s arrival) but no one as far as I know seriously suggests that Lamb arrived anywhere near 12.40?

So Spooner’s 12.35 estimation was provably incorrect.

So this leaves Hoscherg and Koz as the ‘several’ corroborating witnesses that Michael relies on who suggest that they were in the yard with the body at 12.40 and 12.45. No other witnesses corroborate these times. In fact all of the other witnesses align with what’s condescending called the ‘official’ version. Diemschitz, Eagle, Gillman, Brown, Spooner (5 mins before Lamb) Mrs Dimshitz, the club servants and Lamb. Again, we can and have quibbled over times (5 minutes or so here and there) but even working back from Blackwell’s arrival this aligns with the so-called ‘official’ version.

So basically a whole theory is reliant on 2 rogue witnesses. Two men who had no reason to log the time gave times that fly in the face of all the other witnesses. Who’s times make no sense. But instead of just accepting very simple and very obvious error a conspiracist just can’t do that. It goes against the grain. From these 2 witnesses a whole theory is created. We get a completely unbelievable plot motive. We get idiot plotters who miss childishly obvious better plans to come up with some weird nonsense about the use of one anti-Semitic word. We then get these dimwits not bothering to inform all the members of this plot leaving them to completely scupper there plans by blabbing about times. And to top it off they chose as their patsy, leading the police toward an anti-Semitic killer, a man who can’t even speak English and who is such a colossal moron that he’s willing to place himself alone at the scene of a brutal murder and club members who are apparently blasé about the possibility of someone coming forward to say that they saw Louis arrive back earlier than the plan or that they didn’t see the Schwartz incident occur.

How much time have we wasted discussing this laughable crap. We all know that this categorically didn’t happen.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And then, why did Hoschberg hear a whistle at 12.45 and yet Spooner (in one of the 2 different times that he gave) heard it 10 minutes earlier?

What are you talking about? Who has claimed either of these things?

….

Typed in a hurry. I meant that Hoschberg supposedly heard the whistle at 12.45 and yet when Harris met Spooner (according to Spooner at close to 12.35) he’d already heard a whistle. So 10 minutes earlier.

And how come Spooner didn’t hear it?