Whistling on Berner Street

[Admin]

It's Sunday. I was enjoying it. Now I'm not. This thread is closed til I can deal appropriately with it and everyone who participated in the brawl. Enjoy the rest of the weekend folks. Maybe take a walk. Breathe some fresh air.

[Herlock Sholmes]

yeah, the facts. Yours are just laughable if you werent such a rude ******* too.

From the man who has just called me a cretin and a jerk. I have told you that I have no interest in discussing the case with you. It’s a waste of time.

[FrankO]

As I said about the translated version of the Arbeter Fraint provided by Lynn Cates and the first one to discuss the events of that night, it clearly begins at "approx quarter to 1". Repeating your own post that doesnt say that only proves one thing...and thats not that I was incorrect.

Below you'll find what the Arbeter Fraint wrote before “At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market.”:

“Not long ago, the blood of the slaughtered women dried up from the Whitechapel streets, and once again the cold stones of this neighborhood were warmed by the fresh blood of two other women sacrificed by the hand of an unnatural person. These two unfortunate women were cut up in the same way as the first four.
What interests us most about the latest double murder is that the first of them occurred near the door of our club and that many of us saw the still half-warm body of the unfortunate woman. Here we will give an account of everything that we know about the double murder and mainly about the first one, which was the closest one to us.
The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one. That evening there was a discussion in the club: “Should a Jew be a Socialist?” The hall was packed and the discussion was very lively. The debate went on until approximately eleven o’clock. At about 12 o’clock all the non-members scattered, and about twenty of the members remained in the club. These same [members] created a choir and sang various songs, for the most part, Russian.”

So, it says that the Stride murder occurred at about a quarter to one and that Diemshutz arrived at about one o’clock, while you claimed the AF stated that “Louis arrived at around 15 minutes to 1.” Unless you’re referring to another issue of the AF, I can’t see how you could be correct, Michael. So, please post what you’re looking at, if you do have another issue.

And Issac Kozebrodsky said this since you cant even copy and paste what he said evidently..."About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one.

Since this bit isn’t important for the point I’m making, I didn’t need to copy & past it. The point is that you keep claiming – even though it’s a minor point – that Kozebrodski meets Eagle & Lamb on the way back to Dutfield’s Yard, and I presented evidence that disproves you claim. Kozebrodski himself said he went into Commercial Road along with Eagle and Lamb said that, while he was in Commercial Road, not one but two men came running to him. Which is in perfect agreement with what Kozebrodski said: that he went into Commercial Road together with Eagle and that, there, they found Lamb and PC 426 H. Reading this evidence, I really can’t see how Kozebrodski met Eagle & Lamb on the way back.

Apparently you also believe that posting sections of quotes selectively is a good way to contradict someone.

It depends on what someone states and what I want to react to, but in this case, yes, I only posted the parts that I needed. Why should I post more than I need?

If you want to post what Issac said to contradict me, perhaps you should have included the beginning of the post...About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard..which is what Ive been posting.

No, I really shouldn’t, Michael, simply because Kozebrodski’s timing has no bearing on the point I’m making.

[Michael W Richards]

That Arbeter Fraint issue reads: "At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market."


Isaac Kozebrodski stated: "I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.", which was corroborated by Lamb: "I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running to me shouting something. I went towards them. They said, "Come on, there has been another murder."

As long as you continue to ignore these facts, Michael, it's no use discussing things with you, Michael - so, I'll pass.

Cheers,
Frank

As I said about the translated version of the Arbeter Fraint provided by Lynn Cates and the first one to discuss the events of that night, it clearly begins at "approx quarter to 1". Repeating your own post that doesnt say that only proves one thing...and thats not that I was incorrect.

And Issac Kozebrodsky said this since you cant even copy and paste what he said evidently..."About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

Apparently you also believe that posting sections of quotes selectively is a good way to contradict someone. If you want to post what Issac said to contradict me, perhaps you should have included the beginning of the post...About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard..which is what Ive been posting.

[FrankO]

I know well about the Arbeter Fraint Frank, (https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...arbeter-fraynd), and I know the issue that was released after the Stride murder stated Louis arrived at around 15 minutes to 1.

That Arbeter Fraint issue reads: "At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market."

Issac K meets them on the way back, what time must he have left?

Isaac Kozebrodski stated: "I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.", which was corroborated by Lamb: "I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running to me shouting something. I went towards them. They said, "Come on, there has been another murder."

As long as you continue to ignore these facts, Michael, it's no use discussing things with you, Michael - so, I'll pass.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

How did Gigelmann know there was a dead woman in the yard, when Diemschitz states that he did not know if the woman was drunk or dead? Diemschitz told at least one reporter that he thought the woman might have been his wife, and went inside to look for her. Yet according to Eagle, the man Gigelmann seems to have stated positively that the woman was dead, and so this man must have already seen her by match or candlelight.

Its a case of ‘filling in the gaps.’ So he’s either forgotten that Diemschitz had said dead or drunk and just remembered the ‘dead’ part or he’s just left out the ‘drunk’ part because he now knows that she was actually dead and that the suggestion that she might have been drunk was unimportant.

[GBinOz]

Inquest, Daily News, Oct 2:

Eagle: As soon as I entered the gateway on the night in question I heard a friend of mine singing-perhaps the window was partly open, but I am not sure. He was singing in the Russian language. I went up and we sang together. I had been there about 20 minutes when the man I mentioned-Gigelmann-came and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard."

Diemschitz: My wife was with several of the members of the club. I told them "There is a woman lying in the yard, but I cannot say whether she is drunk or dead." I then got a candle and went down. By that light I could see there was blood even before I reached the body.

If Gigelmann = Diemschitz, then surely "the man I mentioned" would have been identified as the steward. He appears to have been his Russian singing buddy.

How did Gigelmann know there was a dead woman in the yard, when Diemschitz states that he did not know if the woman was drunk or dead? Diemschitz told at least one reporter that he thought the woman might have been his wife, and went inside to look for her. Yet according to Eagle, the man Gigelmann seems to have stated positively that the woman was dead, and so this man must have already seen her by match or candlelight. The question is; when? Before answering, consider how Eagle continues:

I went down in a second, struck a match, and saw a woman lying on the ground near the gates with a lot of blood near her. Her feet were six or seven feet from the gate, and her head lay towards the yard. When I reached the body and struck the match there was only one of the members present. I thought at first she was drunk, and told her to get up-that was before I struck the match.

Only one of the members present? Was that Diemschitz? Kozebrodsky (Gilyarovsky) - Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time.

Arbeter Fraint: Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!”

Apparently not. So when was this scene occurring? Was it before or after this ...?

Mrs. Diemschitz: Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

How could it have been after, if on hearing Sarah's screams, the members "rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard"? So it must been before. That is, before Diemschitz had even arrived home. Can't have been before as she mentions him striking a light before she screamed.

Andrew,

You are reading sinister clues into something that may be a simple as fallacies of memory. When Diemshitz initially mentioned finding his wife inside Eagle was upstairs, but Gilleman may have come downstairs to indulge in the tea and biscuits that Mrs D was serving. He hears Louis, goes upstairs and relays only part of the message to his singing buddy. Eagle comes downstairs just as Koze is headed out the door with Louis. Mrs D follows after and screams. This is all just pure conjecture as to how it may have gone down, so I won't be justifying the speculation.

Unless there is another reference, it appears that Gilleman made no mention of time, and Eagle - "About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club." and "I should say it was about 1 o'clock, although I did not look at the clock." was just guessing.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I keep seeing posted references to "Gilleman" but all I can find is

1. the entry in the Complete A-Z :
Gilleman: Supposed member of the IWC who according to Morris Eagle came into the clubroom at around 1am and said "There is a dead woman lying in the yard". Analysis of the sources shows that Eagle was talking about Louis Diemshutz.

2. Ripperologist No 11
Contents:

Page Thirteen:

The Mystery of Gilleman - Solved?

Paul Begg

Can someone please enlighten me as to why Gilleman is so mysterious and as to what importance he has on the Stride case???

Cheers, George

Inquest, Daily News, Oct 2:

Eagle: I had been there about 20 minutes when the man I mentioned-Gigelmann-came and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard."

Diemschitz: My wife was with several of the members of the club. I told them "There is a woman lying in the yard, but I cannot say whether she is drunk or dead." I then got a candle and went down. By that light I could see there was blood even before I reached the body.

If Gigelmann = Diemschitz, then surely "the man I mentioned" would have been identified as the steward.

How did Gigelmann know there was a dead woman in the yard, when Diemschitz states that he did not know if the woman was drunk or dead? Diemschitz told at least one reporter that he thought the woman might have been his wife, and went inside to look for her. Yet according to Eagle, the man Gigelmann seems to have stated positively that the woman was dead, and so this man must have already seen her by match or candlelight. The question is; when? Before answering, consider how Eagle continues:

I went down in a second, struck a match, and saw a woman lying on the ground near the gates with a lot of blood near her. Her feet were six or seven feet from the gate, and her head lay towards the yard. When I reached the body and struck the match there was only one of the members present. I thought at first she was drunk, and told her to get up-that was before I struck the match.

Only one of the members present? Was that Diemschitz?

Arbeter Fraint: Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!”

Apparently not. So when was this scene occurring? Was it before or after this ...?

Mrs. Diemschitz: Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

How could it have been after, if on hearing Sarah's screams, the members "rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard"? So it must been before. That is, before Diemschitz had even arrived home.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ok Herly Whirly...lets try just 2 questions and see if you can answer it instead of just saying "its been rebuuted"...shall we?

Lamb stated that he arrived just before 1 or at 1, as he saw Eagle on the street looking for help, correct? Then at What time did Eagle leave the site for help? Issac K meets them on the way back, what time must he have left?

Only a fool or a dishonest person would persist in holding people who are clearly estimating times to exact times. This is manipulation.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I know well about the Arbeter Fraint Frank, (https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...arbeter-fraynd), and I know the issue that was released after the Stride murder stated Louis arrived at around 15 minutes to 1.

The reason for the petty comments concerning Gileman is because Herly Whirly sticks with Louis and Morris statements that the "discovery" was at or just after 1 am, when very clearly in the post I made that Herly Wirly says is bunk shows that Lamb statements, Johnsons statements, Blackwells statements and Phillips statement make that timeline impossible. Then you have mutiple witnesses that all say they were by the body at 12:40-12:45. Thats when Eagle knew about it...hence, so did Gileman,...and Spooner, and Heschberg and Kozebrodski.

Herly has Louis and Morris as his support, I have the rest of the witnesses, not really a fair fight... but when you deal with people who are oblivious to what constitutes "rebuttal" or a counter argument, its what he asked for. He either cant read or cant understand, he only has insults...not a point, nor an argument, nor the spine to address his lies and defeats. Which continue to pile up.

Staggering, contemptible dishonesty.

The comments about Gilleman are due to your proven lies.

[Michael W Richards]

Ok Herly Whirly...lets try just 2 questions and see if you can answer it instead of just saying "its been rebuuted"...shall we?

Lamb stated that he arrived just before 1 or at 1, as he saw Eagle on the street looking for help, correct? Then at What time did Eagle leave the site for help? Issac K meets them on the way back, what time must he have left?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi George,

Perhaps Gilleman is so mysterious, because so very little, if anything, is known about him, as he was only mentioned by Eagle and because he's also known as Gid(d)leman(n) and Giglemann. He may very well be the Gilyarovsky mentioned in the October edition of the Arbeter Fraint and some, based on that edition of the Arbeter Fraint, think he might also be Kozebrodski. You'll find Gilleman/Giglemann/Gidleman, among others, in the Daily News of 2 October, the Daily Telegraph, Morning Advertiser and Times of the same date.

I and others don't think he's so important to the case, but Mike Richards, who keeps calling him Gillen, thinks he is, as he's somehow supposed to support the notion that Stride wasn't found at about 1 o'clock, but just before 12:40.

Arbeter Fraint of October:
"At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body. His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this. He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body. He immediately struck a match, but that was insufficient and he wasn’t able to get a [good] flame, he was nevertheless able by the light of the first match to see that the object was a woman. From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm.
Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”
In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman;"

I hope this answers your questions, at least to some extent (and doesn't create new ones!).

Cheers,
Frank

I know well about the Arbeter Fraint Frank, (https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...arbeter-fraynd), and I know the issue that was released after the Stride murder stated Louis arrived at around 15 minutes to 1.

The reason for the petty comments concerning Gileman is because Herly Whirly sticks with Louis and Morris statements that the "discovery" was at or just after 1 am, when very clearly in the post I made that Herly Wirly says is bunk shows that Lamb statements, Johnsons statements, Blackwells statements and Phillips statement make that timeline impossible. Then you have mutiple witnesses that all say they were by the body at 12:40-12:45. Thats when Eagle knew about it...hence, so did Gileman,...and Spooner, and Heschberg and Kozebrodski.

Herly has Louis and Morris as his support, I have the rest of the witnesses, not really a fair fight... but when you deal with people who are oblivious to what constitutes "rebuttal" or a counter argument, its what he asked for. He either cant read or cant understand, he only has insults...not a point, nor an argument, nor the spine to address his lies and defeats. Which continue to pile up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You are living in a fantasy Herlock. Name one point I made in that post that isnt a recorded FACT. I didnt even mention Gileman for god sake, are you that far afield of reality that you now see things too? All of those timing are by the witnesses themselves, none support an arrival of Louis at or just after 1. And the fact that multiple witnesses stated they were by the body 15 or 20 minutes before Louis says he even arrived should tell you something.

If you call holding you hands over your eyes and ears rebuttal, sure...nice job. If you make up things as rebuttal, yeah, suppose thats up your alley too. But desist on suggesting that anything that doesnt agree with you is "rebutted", you have to be a sane person and actually have a counter argument to do that.

If youd like to reassess what was posted in #573 and attempt to deny all of it is as recorded historically, go for it. Love to hand you your head again. Otherwise princess, maybe go play elsewhere ...grownups are talking.

Just be glad there is no basic knowledge test for you have to pass to post here, cause if there was we all would have been saved over 11,000 of them. Not only poorly informed, but way too chatty too.

Im not interest in your manipulations Michael. You repeatedly claimed (and it’s been produced in black and white) that Gilleman was evidence of an earlier discovery time. We KNOW that this is a lie. But you still cannot bring yourself to admit it so ‘shame on you’ as they say.

No one believes your plot nonsense Michael. That’s all that matters. Forget me, others have assessed it over the years and dismissed it. It’s gone. This is why I don’t wish to discuss the case with someone who can’t take an honest, unbiased view.

[Michael W Richards]

Im no longer interested in discussing this aspect of the case with a biased, manipulator of evidence like yourself. I’m bored of your exaggerations and your infantile assessments and your pig-headed refusal to accept a reasonable margin for error on these timings. Your lie about Gilleman is enough for anyone to show what depths you’re willing to stoop to to shoehorn your comedic theory in to place.

Your theory has been conclusively rebutted. Of course you can continue on your lonely, ego-fuelled path if you wish to waste you’re own time like that but I’m no longer willing to waste my own time repeatedly refuting your nonsense. It’s impossible to debate with a zealot who is devoid of all reason. I’m done with fantasists.

You are living in a fantasy Herlock. Name one point I made in that post that isnt a recorded FACT. I didnt even mention Gileman for god sake, are you that far afield of reality that you now see things too? All of those timing are by the witnesses themselves, none support an arrival of Louis at or just after 1. And the fact that multiple witnesses stated they were by the body 15 or 20 minutes before Louis says he even arrived should tell you something.

If you call holding you hands over your eyes and ears rebuttal, sure...nice job. If you make up things as rebuttal, yeah, suppose thats up your alley too. But desist on suggesting that anything that doesnt agree with you is "rebutted", you have to be a sane person and actually have a counter argument to do that.

If youd like to reassess what was posted in #573 and attempt to deny all of it is as recorded historically, go for it. Love to hand you your head again. Otherwise princess, maybe go play elsewhere ...grownups are talking.

Just be glad there is no basic knowledge test for you have to pass to post here, cause if there was we all would have been saved over 11,000 of them. Not only poorly informed, but way too chatty too.

[FrankO]

Cool new avatar.

Thanks, George - I was about 6 years old on that photo... elementary school, great time.

None of the mentions of him as a witness have him quoting a discovery time at all. Perhaps the solution of the "Mystery of Gilleman" proposed by Paul Begg in the Ripperologist No 11 is that he was actually Deimshits?

Either that or there was no mystery at all, just a (Gille)man with not much of a role at all.

Cheers,
Frank