Whistling on Berner Street

[Herlock Sholmes]

. You mean a club occupied by rough Anarchists? Is that why he said ...?

There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested.

I don't think he was holding back, at all.

Fights would hardly have been a rarity. I was talking about political activism. As you well know.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. You misquoted me. Deliberately, of course.

Why would I ‘deliberately’ misquote you when I know full well that you will respond by pointing this out?

I certainly didn’t read the full quote though. That was my error.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. It's not important to you? Is that why you didn't bother arguing the issue?

If Herschburg was at home and heard a policeman's whistle, then the whistler was likely a WVC patrolman on the street, who became aware of the situation at the yard, at a very early stage. There are several possible implications of this, including what he might have seen just prior and after the murder, what happened at the gates in the immediate aftermath of the discovery, his possible link to Schwartz's account, and the two men who may have been known to each other. Discussing these possibilities was part of my intention when starting this thread, but rather predictably, it never happened. Too far removed from the Standard Model of Berner Street, I guess. However, as the theory that a man on WVC patrol was responsible for the early whistle, has not been challenged, these are totally valid points for discussion. Those with more orthodox views will probably disagree though, and by all means, call it conspiracy theory if it makes you feel better.

No. overwhelmingly the likeliest and most sensible explanation is that he was wrong about the time and that he heard Lamb blow his whistle when he was in the yard or that he heard Lamb blow his whistle, when Eagle found him, to attract the attention of the fixed point officer. Lamb would have had no reason to have mentioned this entirely trivial point.

Your suggestion about the WVC, whilst not impossible, has no basis in evidence. They were only a relatively small band of men and so there’d have been untold streets not patrolled by them.

[Michael W Richards]

I find it really fascinating that some people are willing to discount multiple accounts of the same events at the same time by multiple witnesses and yest accept accounts that are by people with bias and without one verifiable corroborative source. Arbeter Fraint says later that month that something happened at 12:45, multiple witnesses says something happened at 12:40ish, and a police officer says he arrived at the gates before Louis Diemshitz says he even arrived to discover the body. That last point is huge, if you are looking to discover what actually happened. Lamb could not have been summoned to the gates before the body was discovered, could he? Yet it appears some are comfortable with erasing statements that contradict Louis nonetheless.

The preponderance of evidence that is available, without this modern creative and inventive analysis, suggest that for Lamb to be summoned there before 1, the people he met to summon him....(1 of which later claims Louis arrived when he said he did...joined by one witness who said "Louis or some other member sent him out for help just after 12:40"), must have left to seek help at least 5-10 minutes prior to Lambs arrival by summons. Which aligns perfectly with the multiple witnesses who stated they became aware of the body there before 12:45.

All this revisionist opinion about whose times matched the actual clocks available is erroneous, at least 3 of the people that stated the earlier time came from inside buildings which most certainly had time pieces available to check. Louis didnt, Eagle didnt, Lave didnt, and Schwartz, if he was there, did not. However Mortimer did, Heschberg did, Kozebrodski did..and he had just arrived back at the club and marked that time as 12:30. No 2 clocks need be synchronized...and surely were not. But multiple witnesses suggesting the same times are far too compelling to be dismissed by theorists who wish to explain the problems with the ones that no one could give secondary support to just because they wish to believe them.

Funny that the club steward of this police described "anarchist club", .. arrested the next year for assaulting police in that same yard, the club speaker and the club likely unofficial photographer...all benefiting from income or housing from the club, all seem to suggest timings that cannot be accurate. Lamb, a policeman who HAD TO know his beat times, should be enough to reveal the truth here.

People who read opinions that defy logic and reason should be allowed to read ones that actually incorporate both as well. This is real history, not Wikipedia.

[c.d.]

Funny that the club steward of this police described "anarchist club", .. arrested the next year for assaulting police in that same yard, the club speaker and the club likely unofficial photographer...all benefiting from income or housing from the club, all seem to suggest timings that cannot be accurate.

You keep making this point, Michael and while I can understand that no one wants to lose their job the reality is that these were low paying, shabby little jobs at a shabby little club. You want us to believe that they were the CEOs of major corporations or partners in a big New York law firm. They were certainly not the only jobs in Whitechapel and lying to police in a murder investigation was taking a big risk.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I find it really fascinating that some people are willing to discount multiple accounts of the same events at the same time by multiple witnesses and yest accept accounts that are by people with bias and without one verifiable corroborative source. Arbeter Fraint says later that month that something happened at 12:45, multiple witnesses says something happened at 12:40ish, and a police officer says he arrived at the gates before Louis Diemshitz says he even arrived to discover the body. That last point is huge, if you are looking to discover what actually happened. Lamb could not have been summoned to the gates before the body was discovered, could he? Yet it appears some are comfortable with erasing statements that contradict Louis nonetheless.

The preponderance of evidence that is available, without this modern creative and inventive analysis, suggest that for Lamb to be summoned there before 1, the people he met to summon him....(1 of which later claims Louis arrived when he said he did...joined by one witness who said "Louis or some other member sent him out for help just after 12:40"), must have left to seek help at least 5-10 minutes prior to Lambs arrival by summons. Which aligns perfectly with the multiple witnesses who stated they became aware of the body there before 12:45.

All this revisionist opinion about whose times matched the actual clocks available is erroneous, at least 3 of the people that stated the earlier time came from inside buildings which most certainly had time pieces available to check. Louis didnt, Eagle didnt, Lave didnt, and Schwartz, if he was there, did not. However Mortimer did, Heschberg did, Kozebrodski did..and he had just arrived back at the club and marked that time as 12:30. No 2 clocks need be synchronized...and surely were not. But multiple witnesses suggesting the same times are far too compelling to be dismissed by theorists who wish to explain the problems with the ones that no one could give secondary support to just because they wish to believe them.

Funny that the club steward of this police described "anarchist club", .. arrested the next year for assaulting police in that same yard, the club speaker and the club likely unofficial photographer...all benefiting from income or housing from the club, all seem to suggest timings that cannot be accurate. Lamb, a policeman who HAD TO know his beat times, should be enough to reveal the truth here.

People who read opinions that defy logic and reason should be allowed to read ones that actually incorporate both as well. This is real history, not Wikipedia.

The only ‘revisionism’ is from a man who’s opinion and theory has been utterly dismissed by everyone who has an opinion on the subject (apart from possibly one person.) I’m not interested in any nonsense that you come out with. More bleating about ‘multiple’ witnesses.

Your theory is a joke. It’s been dismissed. It was dismissed 20 years ago. It’s been dismissed today. We should all move on and leave this babyish attempt at distorting the facts purely for reasons of personal aggrandisement. So you can keep jumping up and down shouting “I’m right, I’m right please agree with me,” all you like but it will change nothing. You’re completely and utterly wrong in everything you claim and the worst part about it is that I think that you know that your wrong.

Unhitch the ego, wake up, look around you and notice that your on your own…….and accept that your wrong.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Funny that the club steward of this police described "anarchist club", .. arrested the next year for assaulting police in that same yard, the club speaker and the club likely unofficial photographer...all benefiting from income or housing from the club, all seem to suggest timings that cannot be accurate.

You keep making this point, Michael and while I can understand that no one wants to lose their job the reality is that these were low paying, shabby little jobs at a shabby little club. You want us to believe that they were the CEOs of major corporations or partners in a big New York law firm. They were certainly not the only jobs in Whitechapel and lying to police in a murder investigation was taking a big risk.

c.d.

Exactly c.d. It’s preposterous that these members of a little backstreet club would instantly assume that the Police would swarm all over them and close them down for hosting a ripper murder. Then, on the spot, they come up with undoubtedly the worst plan in the history of crime, involving using a witness who can’t even speak English telling a huge lie which they had no way of knowing couldn’t have been instantly discovered and disproven and where they don’t even inform all of the plotters of the actual plot, despite there being several obvious and far more efficient alternative plans they hit on one which revolves around one anti-Semitic word. And the tame interpreter could even get that right. The mind boggles how anyone could believe this childish nonsense for a single second.

[GBinOz]

No. overwhelmingly the likeliest and most sensible explanation is that he was wrong about the time and that he heard Lamb blow his whistle when he was in the yard or that he heard Lamb blow his whistle, when Eagle found him, to attract the attention of the fixed point officer. Lamb would have had no reason to have mentioned this entirely trivial point.

Your suggestion about the WVC, whilst not impossible, has no basis in evidence. They were only a relatively small band of men and so there’d have been untold streets not patrolled by them.

From the Daily Telegraph account of the Inquest, PC Lamb:
I felt the wrist, but could not discern any movement of the pulse. I then blew my whistle for assistance.
When I blew my whistle other constables came

Evidently Lamb didn't consider it trivial as he mentioned it twice. Had he blown his whistle when Eagle found him he would have drawn other constables to Commercial Road. Ayliffe, who was waiting for his one o'clock finish time, was within voice range.

The names Isaacs and Jacobs are on the list of WVC members. That constitutes more as evidence than speculation about wrong times and inappropriate use of the police whistle.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

From the Daily Telegraph account of the Inquest, PC Lamb:
I felt the wrist, but could not discern any movement of the pulse. I then blew my whistle for assistance.
When I blew my whistle other constables came

Evidently Lamb didn't consider it trivial as he mentioned it twice. Had he blown his whistle when Eagle found him he would have drawn other constables to Commercial Road. Ayliffe, who was waiting for his one o'clock finish time, was within voice range.

The names Isaacs and Jacobs are on the list of WVC members. That constitutes more as evidence than speculation about wrong times and inappropriate use of the police whistle.

Cheers, George

The names Isaacs and Jacobs aren’t necessarily the same men. These aren’t scarce names George so that’s too tenuous to prove anything.

Look we’ve been going round in circles for ever and to be honest George I’m well passed tired of it. I can’t stop anyone thinking what they want to but Hoschberg was clearly wrong in the time that he gave. Not a smidgeon of doubt in my mind. We know what happened so why do we keep dragging this out?

Schwartz incident might or might not have been the killer. Stride’s killer might or might not have been the Ripper. Stride was killed 12.45-1.00. Fanny went onto her doorstep around 12.35 for around 10 minutes then went back inside missing the incident. Diemschitz found the body at 1.00 (accepting the possibility of clock variations) All silly newspaper rumours or nonsense about the use of the word ‘up’ or ‘down’ should be dismissed. Goldstein wasn’t involved in any way so can be ignored as irrelevant. We can learn nothing more so all ‘Berner Street’ threads have become Conspiracy City (and no, I’m not accusing you of being a conspiracy theorist George) There’s too much reading between the lines going going on. And some use this to further an agenda.

Berner Street sorted……way past time to move on.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It’s noticeable that those who claim that Fanny was on her doorstep at 12.45 don’t question why she didn’t see Hoschberg passing?

The question is non-sensical. Herschburg became aware of the incident after the discovery. By the time Fanny locked-up, the discovery was yet to occur, or was just occurring.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fights would hardly have been a rarity. I was talking about political activism. As you well know.

As you well know, Wess described the club as Socialist, under oath. So it's not clear why you're going on about Anarchists. Are you suggesting that in describing the club as Socialist, and not mentioning any other political descriptors, Wess was being loose with the truth?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why would I ‘deliberately’ misquote you when I know full well that you will respond by pointing this out?

I certainly didn’t read the full quote though. That was my error.

Not reading posts carefully, seems to be a bit a habit of yours.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not reading posts carefully, seems to be a bit a habit of yours.

At least I’ll admit to an error. Unlike you.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As you well know, Wess described the club as Socialist, under oath. So it's not clear why you're going on about Anarchists. Are you suggesting that in describing the club as Socialist, and not mentioning any other political descriptors, Wess was being loose with the truth?

You know very well what point I was making. The point that socialism was seen in some quarters as dangerous. Like being and anarchist or a terrorist.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The question is non-sensical. Herschburg became aware of the incident after the discovery. By the time Fanny locked-up, the discovery was yet to occur, or was just occurring.

What time are you claiming that Fanny locked up? I thought that you were of the belief that she went onto her doorstep at 12.45? And as someone who is apparently reluctant to accept reasonable margins for error then we have a potential clash. If Hoschberg got to the yard at 12.45 then the body must have been discovered slightly before that. Ie slightly before 12.45. So slightly before Fanny went onto her doorstep.

Which way do you want it? Just keep rearranging the goalposts.