Whistling on Berner Street

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Another police incident close by, and with near perfect 'timing'. Highly unlikely.

So we can add….

Two things are unlikely to occur at the same time,

to……

If a thing isn’t seen it can’t have happened.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. You seem to be dreaming up scenarios, to make this 'problem' go away.

There is no ‘problem.’ It’s irrelevant.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. It was soon after the discovery. You asked me in a recent post, what time I thought Mortimer had locked-up. I said probably between 12:45 and 1:00, and that the discovery occurred at or just past that point. So why do you keep going on about 12:45?

We’re talking about Hoschberg and not Fanny? Hoschberg said 12.45.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. You seem to be dreaming up scenarios, to make this 'problem' go away.

[c.d.]

You have one the one hand the local law officials referring casually to this club as an "anarchists" club and you have locals referring to men found there after Saturday evening meetings had ended as "low men", perhaps the only issue for them with this incident might not be the club remaining open. They might well be involved in activities that were unlawful. They sure as hell were 6 months later when they attacked the police with clubs, resulting in the arrest of a number of them.

If this were in fact the case, you have to question the wisdom of lying to the police in a murder investigation. "You know, the police consider us anarchists and really hate our guts. They would love to come up with a reason to shut us down and throw us in jail. Clearly they don't trust us. What do you think we should do? Hey, how about this? We make up a very questionable story from a witness who doesn't speak English. They will never suspect a thing."

Doesn't sound like a very good plan to me especially since cooperating fully with the police would seem like a much better option.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And all that it would have taken to smash this flimsy plot to shreds was either one person to come forward to say “ I saw Diemschutz heading toward the club on his cart and it was at 12.40 and not 1.00,” or someone saying “I was looking out of my window from 12.30 until 1.00 and I could see the gates of the club and I saw no incident.” So they come up with a plot knowing full well that the police will interview everyone at the scene and yet it doesn’t bother them that no one has told Hoschberg and Kozebrodski “now don’t forget. When the police ask, Louis found the body at 1.00. Got it? Good.” It’s almost as stupid as using a ‘witness’ who can’t speak English.

How can we assume that these plotters were so unbelievably stupid as to risk something that they had zero control over? The whole ‘plan’ requires layer upon layer of stupidity and pointless risk in an attempt to prevent something that wouldn’t have happened in the first place.

[GBinOz]

Hello George,

As I said in a post above I can only ask why no one finds it strange that no one else heard these early police whistles. Spooner/Harris is a case in point. Harris heard it from inside his house but Spooner didn’t hear it standing out on the street.

I can’t help but think that a bit of ‘garbling’ of stories might have gone on here.

Hi Herlock,

You were more accurate in your earlier question - why no one else reported hearing the early whistle. But how many people reported hearing Lamb's whistle blast? Diemshitz and Letchford, and the later reported hearing the policeman's whistles. So two reported hearing Lamb's whistle and there were two, or three, reports of the early whistle. The answer to your question is we don't know why, but not knowing why does not logically flow to a conclusion that it didn't happen.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

You were more accurate in your earlier question - why no one else reported hearing the early whistle. But how many people reported hearing Lamb's whistle blast? Diemshitz and Letchford, and the later reported hearing the policeman's whistles. So two reported hearing Lamb's whistle and there were two, or three, reports of the early whistle. The answer to your question is we don't know why, but not knowing why does not logically flow to a conclusion that it didn't happen.

Cheers, George

I’m not saying that it couldn’t have happened but just that it seems strange that Harris heard it from indoors but Spooner didn’t from outside. Then again….

“Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman’s whistle blowing.”

The problem is of course that we don’t know how accurate the wording was.

It still doesn’t change the fact that the body wasn’t discovered at 12.45 or before though.

[Michael W Richards]

Lamb's arrival did not start the commotion. It would more correct to say that his arrival had the effect of ending the commotion.

FM: A man touched her face and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house.

That man was probably Ed Spooner. Like Herschburg, Fanny seems to have arrived just before the police did.

As Fanny indicated, she went back inside just after 1 then heard the commotion outside a few minutes later, that coincides nicely with Lamb having arrived at the scene just before or at 1am. It also indicates that Lamb met with Eagle before 1am then proceeded to the club with him, joined by Issac K, who was alone up to that point. Which means that Eagle went out around 12:40-12:45 which coincides with the witnesses who said they were alerted to the woman at that time. And with Issac saying he went out for help just after being alerted to the body at 12:40.

Fanny was at her door "off and on", or "nearly the whole time" between 12:30 and 1am, but we can only place her there with any certainty when Goldstein passes at around 12:55-56. I believe since a few witnesses say they were there by the body at that time, when he looked into the yard, he must have seen them there. Maybe thats why he is coaxed into making his statement Tuesday evening with Wess as translator.....they knew Fanny had seen him.

Sorry for the deviation from the whistle business, some think that solves something.....

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fanny said that she went onto her doorstep just after the Constable passed (which she believed to have been at 12.45 but Smith said 10 or 15 minutes earlier)

So if she went onto her doorstep just after Smith…..let’s say 12.36 then obviously she wasn’t on her doorstep between 12.30 and then. She said that she stayed on her doorstep for around 10 minutes then went back inside until she heard the disturbance.

So between 12.30 and 1.00 she spent around 10 minutes on her doorstep. And one period.

Can someone explain how this can be called either “off and on” or “nearly the whole time.” Fractions obviously weren’t her strong point.

……

How are we so sure what time Goldstein passed?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

And then, why did Hoschberg hear a whistle at 12.45 and yet Spooner (in one of the 2 different times that he gave) heard it 10 minutes earlier?

What are you talking about? Who has claimed either of these things?

….

Typed in a hurry. I meant that Hoschberg supposedly heard the whistle at 12.45 and yet when Harris met Spooner (according to Spooner at close to 12.35) he’d already heard a whistle. So 10 minutes earlier.

And how come Spooner didn’t hear it?

You seem to have difficulty in differentiating between the hearing of an early whistle, and the accuracy of the times reported by relevant witnesses. Why is it that you love telling us that Herschburg's time was a guess, and can therefore be 'dismissed', and yet when the evidence strongly suggests that he arrived at the yard before police, his estimate suddenly becomes a claim that the time was spot-on 12:45? Would it have anything to do with you wanting to discredit the whole notion of an early whistle? To answer my own question; in using Spooner's later stated and obviously erroneous time, 'Yes'.

This is the time estimate you should be using for Spooner ...

Between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock on Sunday morning I was standing outside the Bee Hive publichouse, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street, along with a young woman. I had previously been in another beershop at the top of the street, and afterwards walked down. After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police."

So about 12:55.

We’re talking about Hoschberg and not Fanny? Hoschberg said 12.45.

So let me spell it out for you. If Fanny is supposed (by myself), to have locked-up about midway between 12:45 and 1:00 GMT, and this was just before the discovery, and the early whistle was in response to the discovery, then Herschburg is arriving at the yard some time between lockup and 1:00 GMT. In other words, Herschburg's estimate of the time, by this reckoning, was out by about 10 minutes.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I’m not saying that it couldn’t have happened but just that it seems strange that Harris heard it from indoors but Spooner didn’t from outside. Then again….

“Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman’s whistle blowing.”

The problem is of course that we don’t know how accurate the wording was.

It still doesn’t change the fact that the body wasn’t discovered at 12.45 or before though.

Once again, how do you know Spooner didn't hear it?

Arguably, Spooner's reference to the police whistle, means he is talking about a specific whistling, whereas a police whistle, would not. That might suggest Spooner was aware of the whistling heard by Harris.

James Brown: When I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder" I opened the window, but could not see any one and the screams ceased. The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

I have argued that the man JB saw at the corner, was actually Ed Spooner. However, let's say for the sake of argument that he actually saw a Met constable. Presumably this constable made it to that point, after hearing Lamb's whistle when further away. Why didn't Brown also hear this whistle? Or did he just not mention it (possibly because he had forgotten hearing it)?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why are you so obsessed with this whistle?? I’m losing the will to live on this endlessly pointless quibbling and nitpicking and all to manufacture a plot. Someone blew a f*****g whistle. So what?

Hoschberg wasn’t in the yard with the body at 12.45.
At 12.45 Fanny was back indoors.
Schwartz passed.
Goldstein passed once and is an irrelevance.
Stride is killed by an unknown man.
Louis returned 1.00 (with a + or - on the accuracy of the clock.)
Louis finds body.
Police are found and come to yard.

Thats what happened.

No further comment required.

Case closed until something new surfaces.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You have one the one hand the local law officials referring casually to this club as an "anarchists" club and you have locals referring to men found there after Saturday evening meetings had ended as "low men", perhaps the only issue for them with this incident might not be the club remaining open. They might well be involved in activities that were unlawful. They sure as hell were 6 months later when they attacked the police with clubs, resulting in the arrest of a number of them.

If this were in fact the case, you have to question the wisdom of lying to the police in a murder investigation. "You know, the police consider us anarchists and really hate our guts. They would love to come up with a reason to shut us down and throw us in jail. Clearly they don't trust us. What do you think we should do? Hey, how about this? We make up a very questionable story from a witness who doesn't speak English. They will never suspect a thing."

Doesn't sound like a very good plan to me especially since cooperating fully with the police would seem like a much better option.

c.d.

I don't agree with this argument specifically, or with this style of argument, in general. One could just as easily suggest that as the police supposedly 'hated their guts', they felt compelled to make up a story that would take the culprit away from the club, and onto the street. Either way, it is not adequate to suggest that the club's perception of the police's attitude toward them, would necessarily result in either complete cooperate, or a resolve to 'do something'. The validity of Schwartz's story, cannot be determined by in principle arguments.

[GBinOz]

I’m not saying that it couldn’t have happened but just that it seems strange that Harris heard it from indoors but Spooner didn’t from outside. Then again….

“Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman’s whistle blowing.”

The problem is of course that we don’t know how accurate the wording was.

It still doesn’t change the fact that the body wasn’t discovered at 12.45 or before though.

You don't know that Spooner didn't hear the whistle, only that he didn't say he heard it. Speaking of Spooner, I agree with Jeff that he likely said he arrived at the yard at "about five to one" and that has been recorded as twenty five to one and then 12:35.

This time of 12:45 that you keep dismissing. Was that Club time, or Police time, or Doctor time, or Mortimer time, or GMT, or.......? Perhaps you should re-read the comments made by Jeff and myself on our timelines?

Cheers, George