Whistling on Berner Street

[Herlock Sholmes]

Are you suggesting that 'the Hungarian' who spoke to the Star, was not Israel Schwartz?
That sounds like something a conspiracy theorist would say. Are you preparing to come out of the conspiracy closet?

I’d say that it was just the absence of any mention of an interpreter. Schwartz couldn’t speak English, that’s why he had an interpreter. It’s not difficult stuff.

Ill ask a question “have you ever, and I mean ever, read any single section of this whole case and not seen ‘evidence’ of lies or someone being up to something?”

Im guessing no.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Are you suggesting that Wess did not talk to the Echo reporter, and that the reporter must have made up the whole thing? This is good conspiracy stuff, Michael. Keep it up!

No, I’m saying that, as ever, you are doing your usual trick of reading between the lines and applying your own particular ‘brand’ of interpretation. You could turn a shopping list into The Lord Of The Rings.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Michael,

I agree with adopting the Daily Telegraph account for Lamb, and their account for Johnson as it fits Lamb's times.
Mr. Edward Johnson: I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kaye and Blackwell. On Sunday morning last, at a few minutes past one o'clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H.

I have been wondering how you were accounting for the disputed ten minutes, whether it was a delay in their going for help or a delay in their finding help, and you indicate the latter. While there were reports that there was a considerable delay in finding a Police Constable, 10 minutes seems to be a little too long. Even if Koze went with Diemshitz to Grove St and back, at running pace that shouldn't have taken more than about 3 minutes. If Koze then left with Eagle to Commercial road, another 2 minutes to find Lamb, has a time of about 12:50. I seem to recall you thought "shortly before one" would equate to about 12:56, which would also be ok for "about one o'clock".
Throw in some clock calibration errors and you're nearly there, except for Diemshitz and Schwartz.

I am glad that I am not the only one to rate police times as the benchmark.

Cheers, George

Why is The Telegraph a more reliable source than The Times?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I’d say that it was just the absence of any mention of an interpreter. Schwartz couldn’t speak English, that’s why he had an interpreter. It’s not difficult stuff.

The Star: He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter. He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane. The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police.

You're right - it isn't difficult. By the way, how did you suppose the reporter made sense of Schwartz without an interpreter? Or did you suppose that he just made it all up?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No, I’m saying that, as ever, you are doing your usual trick of reading between the lines and applying your own particular ‘brand’ of interpretation. You could turn a shopping list into The Lord Of The Rings.

Perhaps you could do an analysis on that report, and show us all how to do it right?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Star: He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter. He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane. The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police.

You're right - it isn't difficult. By the way, how did you suppose the reporter made sense of Schwartz without an interpreter? Or did you suppose that he just made it all up?

Are you blind?

He had an interpreter at the station and an interpreter when the reporter spoke to him.

How could you have made that post?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Perhaps you could do an analysis on that report, and show us all how to do it right?

Where is the report?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Are you blind?

He had an interpreter at the station and an interpreter when the reporter spoke to him.

How could you have made that post?

Gracious as ever. So what did you mean when you said this...?

I’d say that it was just the absence of any mention of an interpreter.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Gracious as ever. So what did you mean when you said this...?

My mistake, but I thought that when you said ‘the Hungarian that spoke to a reporter’ you were quoting directly and that the quote sounded like there was no reporter.

[Herlock Sholmes]

My mistake, but I thought that when you said ‘the Hungarian that spoke to a reporter’ you were quoting directly and that the quote sounded like there was no reporter.

That should read “…..like there was no interpreter.”

[GBinOz]

Why is The Telegraph a more reliable source than The Times?

Hi Herlock,

As you are aware, the differing reports from the inquest are from reporters hearing exactly the same words.

Daily Telegraph:
Mr. Edward Johnson: I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kaye and Blackwell. On Sunday morning last, at a few minutes past one o'clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H.

Morning Advertiser:
Mr. Edward Johnson, called and examined - I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell at that address. On Sunday morning last, a few minutes past one o’clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H.

Times:
Edward Johnston said:- I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H.

Daily News:
Mr. Edward Johnston, 100, Commercial-road, said: I am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. On Sunday morning last I was called up by a constable.

Above are reports of Johnson's testimony. The Daily News didn't seem to think that time was important, who knows how the Times came up with their report, the Daily Telegraph and the Morning Advertiser give the same concise time.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Above are reports of Johnson's testimony. The Daily News didn't seem to think that time was important, who knows how the Times came up with their report, the Daily Telegraph and the Morning Advertiser give the same concise time.

Times:
Mr. Frederick William Blackwell said, - I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am a surgeon. At 10 minutes past 1 on Sunday morning I was called to 40, Berner-street. I was called by a policeman, and my assistant, Mr. Johnson, went back with him. I followed immediately I had dressed. I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was just 1:10.

The Times reporting does seem a bit wobbly, in regard to the times.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

As you are aware, the differing reports from the inquest are from reporters hearing exactly the same words.

Daily Telegraph:
Mr. Edward Johnson: I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kaye and Blackwell. On Sunday morning last, at a few minutes past one o'clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H.

Morning Advertiser:
Mr. Edward Johnson, called and examined - I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell at that address. On Sunday morning last, a few minutes past one o’clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H.

Times:
Edward Johnston said:- I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H.

Daily News:
Mr. Edward Johnston, 100, Commercial-road, said: I am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. On Sunday morning last I was called up by a constable.

Above are reports of Johnson's testimony. The Daily News didn't seem to think that time was important, who knows how the Times came up with their report, the Daily Telegraph and the Morning Advertiser give the same concise time.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

My point would be why would The Times reporter have invented a more precise interpretation of what Johnston said? You’ll probably accuse me of bias but if I was looking at those quotes without any prior knowledge I’d have leaned toward The Times as being the likeliest to have been accurate. I couldn’t state this as a fact of course. But it certainly begs the question “why is The Times version of what Lamb said less likely than The Telegraph?’

Either way, Michael for example is suggesting Eagle met Lamb at closer to 12.45 which obviously would accommodate HoschKoz. But just before 1.00 could easily have meant that Lamb passed the clock at a minute before 1.00. There are questions to be asked about every single suggested time in these events but I’m certain that Eagle met Lamb much closer to the hour than 12.45 or 12.50.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi George,

My point would be why would The Times reporter have invented a more precise interpretation of what Johnston said? You’ll probably accuse me of bias but if I was looking at those quotes without any prior knowledge I’d have leaned toward The Times as being the likeliest to have been accurate. I couldn’t state this as a fact of course. But it certainly begs the question “why is The Times version of what Lamb said less likely than The Telegraph?’

In general, I would tend to favor the the more descriptive account, and in this case it comes from the Times. Therefore, if Lamb had been alerted at close to or just before 1am, and Johnston is not seeing Ayliffe until between 1:05 and 10, then either the surgery clocks and watches are all about 5 minutes 'ahead of time', or Ayliffe was delayed in making his way to the surgery. Obviously the other alternative is that Lamb was alerted after 1am.

How could Ayliffe been delayed? Perhaps when attempting to get away from the yard, he faced a similar situation to that of Lamb....

As I was examining to see whether there were any other injuries beyond that on the throat, the crowd pressed close in. I begged of them to keep back as they might get blood on their clothes and get themselves into trouble.

Dealing with a curious and excited crowd, may have delayed Ayliffe's departure.

Either way, Michael for example is suggesting Eagle met Lamb at closer to 12.45 which obviously would accommodate HoschKoz.

If Michael is suggesting that, then he needs to think about the point of this thread - that Herschburg and Harris heard a police whistle before Lamb arrived at the yard, and what the implications of that might be.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In general, I would tend to favor the the more descriptive account, and in this case it comes from the Times. Therefore, if Lamb had been alerted at close to or just before 1am, and Johnston is not seeing Ayliffe until between 1:05 and 10, then either the surgery clocks and watches are all about 5 minutes 'ahead of time', or Ayliffe was delayed in making his way to the surgery. Obviously the other alternative is that Lamb was alerted after 1am.

How could Ayliffe been delayed? Perhaps when attempting to get away from the yard, he faced a similar situation to that of Lamb....

As I was examining to see whether there were any other injuries beyond that on the throat, the crowd pressed close in. I begged of them to keep back as they might get blood on their clothes and get themselves into trouble.

Dealing with a curious and excited crowd, may have delayed Ayliffe's departure.

I can’t recall how far away the doctors was. Did FrankO say a minute or was it 3 minutes? So if, as has been suggested, Eagle found Lamb just before 12.50 then they would have arrived at the yard around 12.50. 15 or 20 minutes seems a huge gap of time to be explained by being delayed by the crowd. From what I’ve read they don’t sound like a disordered rabble. So this is why I’ve always favoured Eagle finding Lamb nearer to 1.05. If Lamb was basically a minute or so away from the club might not this explain the alleged excessive time that it took to find a PC? When it perhaps should have taken a minute or so it actually took around 3 or 4? Approximated times of course. Yes this requires Lamb to have been slightly out and yes I’ve always accepted that the police were more likely to have been aware of the time but we can’t assume that they were always exactly right at any given point. George points out about the clock that Diemschutz saw and it’s a fair point but can we be sure that Lamb used the same clock? Perhaps he was in the habit of gauging his time by other clocks on his route by habit? Perhaps he had less faith in the Diemschutz clock from experience?

If Michael is suggesting that, then he needs to think about the point of this thread - that Herschburg and Harris heard a police whistle before Lamb arrived at the yard, and what the implications of that might be.

The problem is that we can’t be certain who blew the earlier whistle and when. Your suggestion of a WVC member is a reasonable one I think but we just can’t be anything like certain. Maybe Lamb blew his whistle earlier but didn’t bother mentioning it as it wasn’t important?

It’s frustrating but there are just some things that we’ll never know.