Whistling on Berner Street

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

My point would be why would The Times reporter have invented a more precise interpretation of what Johnston said? You’ll probably accuse me of bias but if I was looking at those quotes without any prior knowledge I’d have leaned toward The Times as being the likeliest to have been accurate. I couldn’t state this as a fact of course. But it certainly begs the question “why is The Times version of what Lamb said less likely than The Telegraph?’

Either way, Michael for example is suggesting Eagle met Lamb at closer to 12.45 which obviously would accommodate HoschKoz. But just before 1.00 could easily have meant that Lamb passed the clock at a minute before 1.00. There are questions to be asked about every single suggested time in these events but I’m certain that Eagle met Lamb much closer to the hour than 12.45 or 12.50.

Hi Herlock,

The Daily Telegraph account is corroborated by the Morning Advertiser account. Looking at the Times account of Blackwell's testimony, as shown above, he was more than a bit wobbly on those times as well. Maybe other newspaper accounts would support the DT/MA or the Times, but there are some oddities between the surgery clock and Blackwood's clock/pocket watch as well.

I can't speak for Michael, but I believe Eagle met Lamb at a few minutes before 1:00, which makes Diemshitz exact time a mistake, at best. I inferred that Michael agreed with my approximate time for Eagle meeting Lamb but was indicating a delay in the time required to locate the police. I did ask him for clarification but he has not yet replied.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I can’t recall how far away the doctors was. Did FrankO say a minute or was it 3 minutes?

Not far at all. It was a the top of Batty street, on Commercial Road. Map

If Lamb was basically a minute or so away from the club might not this explain the alleged excessive time that it took to find a PC? When it perhaps should have taken a minute or so it actually took around 3 or 4?

Not sure what you mean by this. Nor am sure as to why the search seems to have taken so long. Koz seems to be indicating that the searches were sequential. Spooner's 5 minute wait seems to support this. Yet Eagle claims to have gone for police immediately on seeing blood, and that Koz was with him, and that he witnessed a pair leaving in the direction of Fairclough. It does not add up. I think it points to a post-murder event that they want to avoid talking about.

George points out about the clock that Diemschutz saw and it’s a fair point but can we be sure that Lamb used the same clock? Perhaps he was in the habit of gauging his time by other clocks on his route by habit? Perhaps he had less faith in the Diemschutz clock from experience?

I would tend to go more on Smith's timing and observations, and work out Lamb/Eagle's timing from that.

The problem is that we can’t be certain who blew the earlier whistle and when. Your suggestion of a WVC member is a reasonable one I think but we just can’t be anything like certain. Maybe Lamb blew his whistle earlier but didn’t bother mentioning it as it wasn’t important?

You might want to check with Monty about the whistle rules. Could Lamb have blow his whistle away from the crime scene? Who responded to this whistle? Smith did not hear it. If Collins heard it, then was he to the north of Commercial Rd? If yes, then who was the constable seen by James Brown?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

The Daily Telegraph account is corroborated by the Morning Advertiser account. Looking at the Times account of Blackwell's testimony, as shown above, he was more than a bit wobbly on those times as well. Maybe other newspaper accounts would support the DT/MA or the Times, but there are some oddities between the surgery clock and Blackwood's clock/pocket watch as well.

I can't speak for Michael, but I believe Eagle met Lamb at a few minutes before 1:00, which makes Diemshitz exact time a mistake, at best. I inferred that Michael agreed with my approximate time for Eagle meeting Lamb but was indicating a delay in the time required to locate the police. I did ask him for clarification but he has not yet replied.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Remind me why you feel that there were issues with the surgery clock and Blackwell’s watch please.

[Herlock Sholmes]

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Not sure what you mean by this. Nor am sure as to why the search seems to have taken so long. Koz seems to be indicating that the searches were sequential. Spooner's 5 minute wait seems to support this. Yet Eagle claims to have gone for police immediately on seeing blood, and that Koz was with him, and that he witnessed a pair leaving in the direction of Fairclough. It does not add up. I think it points to a post-murder event that they want to avoid talking about.

All I’m suggesting is that, as it was suggested somewhere that there were complaints that it took longer than it should have to find a Constable (criticising the police) maybe the explanation is that Eagle first turned left into Commercial Road before turning back to eventually find Lamb. This extra time might have been the source of the complaint. Perhaps Lamb had stopped to talked to someone (the fixed point officer?) and so was only a minute away from the yard but it had taken Eagle 3 minutes to find him.

[GBinOz]

All I’m suggesting is that, as it was suggested somewhere that there were complaints that it took longer than it should have to find a Constable (criticising the police) maybe the explanation is that Eagle first turned left into Commercial Road before turning back to eventually find Lamb. This extra time might have been the source of the complaint. Perhaps Lamb had stopped to talked to someone (the fixed point officer?) and so was only a minute away from the yard but it had taken Eagle 3 minutes to find him.

Hi Herlock,

The doctor's surgery was a 2 minutes walk from the yard (0.1 miles), approximately the same as the walk from the yard to the end of Grove St (Diemshitz's search path). If it is reasonably assumed that they were running, probably half those times. Had Eagle turned left at Commercial Road he would have run into Smith coming east on his beat along Commercial Rd. Lamb had reached the fixed point officer, probably to inform him that it was nearly one o'clock, and was on the return portion of his beat, between Batty and Christian, when found by Eagle and Koz. Once again we have the plague of differing newspaper reports ranging from saying the police arrived almost immediately to suggesting it took 15 minutes to find a Constable.

I don't think Lamb blew his whistle before he arrived at the yard, but it is interesting that you suggest he may have done so but just not mentioned it. This has been my point about him observing the Harris clock, that he did but didn't mention it because he felt it would have been expected that he did so and was not worthy of special mention. I'm sure he took notes as well, even though he didn't specifically say so. The WVC were issued with whistles, why wouldn't he use it at the yard, whoever "he" may have been?

With regard to the surgery clocks, there are 2 reports of Johnson nominating "a few minutes past one" for the police arrival at the surgery, and one report of "about five or ten minutes past one". The Times reports Blackwell as saying he was woken at ten past one and arrived at the yard at ten past one. In other reports he says 1:16 at the yard. The "few minutes past one" report fits Lamb's times unless he delayed sending Collins for the doctor because he was examining the body and needing help with crowd control.

I don't rate the times after the event as important. Since we are unable to determine the actual time of the murder, except for a range, I feel the important time is the time of discovery of the body and its relationship to the last time Stride was seen alive. My assessment is that Schwartz was "incontinently" on his way south of Fairclough by about 12:48 (police time) and Diemshitz turned into the yard at about 12:52 (police time) which may have been about 12:40 Club time. A time of 12:52 would probably be acceptible to all as Diemshitz "usual time of about one o'clock", but when he got to the inquest he couldn't resist augmenting his multiple previous statements with a clock sighting. Eagle said he was informed of the body by Gidleman and there was one other member present when he saw the body. Mrs D said the members came rushing down the stairs as a result of her screams and Hoschberg said he responded to a police whistle. Presumably these events occurred a couple of minutes after Eagle had come down stairs.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Had Eagle turned left at Commercial Road he would have run into Smith coming east on his beat along Commercial Rd. Lamb had reached the fixed point officer, probably to inform him that it was nearly one o'clock, and was on the return portion of his beat, between Batty and Christian, when found by Eagle and Koz. Once again we have the plague of differing newspaper reports ranging from saying the police arrived almost immediately to suggesting it took 15 minutes to find a Constable.

If the search for police took more than a few minutes, would Eagle have necessarily run into Smith if he had turned left into Commercial Rd? Would the answer depend on the searches being concurrent vs sequential? If the former, they could possibly have turned left and yet miss seeing Smith. They didn't see him, so either the searching was concurrent, and started several minutes earlier than normally supposed, or it was as Koz implied - one search party leaving after the other returns, unsuccessful. If the later, then total search time must still have been several minutes. How could this not be the case regardless, when considering Spooner's 5 minute wait?

So maybe we should just believe Koz? Would that mean Eagle's claim to have left for police immediately on seeing blood, and seeing the other search party leave, was false?

I don't think Lamb blew his whistle before he arrived at the yard, but it is interesting that you suggest he may have done so but just not mentioned it. This has been my point about him observing the Harris clock, that he did but didn't mention it because he felt it would have been expected that he did so and was not worthy of special mention. I'm sure he took notes as well, even though he didn't specifically say so.

Smith in the Times:

When I saw deceased lying on the ground I recognized her at once and made a report of what I had seen.

A lot of us suppose that James Brown had seen 'Mortimer's couple' at the corner, and not Stride with some man. Imagine if the same were actually true of Smith - that he had not seen Stride at all, but just a woman with an uncanny similarity. Which reminds me of this...

Kidney: On Monday I saw Mrs. Malcolm, who said the deceased was her sister. She is very like the deceased.

If the board school woman was very like the deceased, and Smith had actually seen this woman and not Stride, then what would we make of his statement about recognizing the deceased at once?

The WVC were issued with whistles, why wouldn't he use it at the yard, whoever "he" may have been?

Who's "he"? That's easy-peasy.

About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut. Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her side in the gateway leading into Dutfield's stabling and van premises. The gate which is a large wooden one, was partly opened, and the woman lying partly in the opening and on the street. He immediately roused the neighbours, and by the aid of a candle it was seen that the woman's throat was cut open very nearly from one ear to the other...

How do you suppose Koster roused the neighbors?

AH: I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. ... The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know...

Koster, Herschburg, Spooner and Harris, all worked for the vigilance committee.

[Scott Nelson]

Spooner worked for the vigilance committee? I don't remember that.

Of course, I don't remember very much at all nowadays.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Spooner worked for the vigilance committee? I don't remember that.

Of course, I don't remember very much at all nowadays.

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Everyone else had to wait around much longer, possibly until about 3am, when the neighbor Barnett Kentorrich was awoken by people talking loudly outside his door. Spooner was chosen by Lamb to help him close the gates, for the same reason he was allowed to leave much earlier than everyone else - he was WVC, and trusted by the police. When he left, he left alone, as he had been when standing on Fairclough street.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Everyone else had to wait around much longer, possibly until about 3am, when the neighbor Barnett Kentorrich was awoken by people talking loudly outside his door. Spooner was chosen by Lamb to help him close the gates, for the same reason he was allowed to leave much earlier than everyone else - he was WVC, and trusted by the police. When he left, he left alone, as he had been when standing on Fairclough street.

That’s proven then.

[GBinOz]

Spooner was chosen by Lamb to help him close the gates, for the same reason he was allowed to leave much earlier than everyone else - he was WVC, and trusted by the police. When he left, he left alone, as he had been when standing on Fairclough street.

I wasn't aware that the WVC were trusted by the police. I was under the impression that the police resented their intrusion.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I wasn't aware that the WVC were trusted by the police. I was under the impression that the police resented their intrusion.

Cheers, George

Initially, some police seem to have been skeptical about the WVC's prospects - see here - but I can't find any evidence of poor relations, once things were up and running. The Amateur Detectives article (it's in a few papers), states...

Suspicions, surmises, and possible clues are notified to the nearest police stations from time to time...

Which suggests they were able to cooperate, in practice.

[caz]

And how many times do you need to read this before it sinks in......police times were the ones to count on, they are the ONLY men in these stories whose job it was to know the time.

In that case, maybe someone could explain why the police accepted that Louis D had discovered the body when he said he did - just after the clock showed the time as 1am.

[caz]

I don't see this "give the poor guy a break" attitude, anywhere. For example:

Anderson: I have to state that the opinion arrived at in this Dept. upon the evidence of Schwartz at the inquest in Eliz. Stride’s case is that the name Lipski which he alleges was used by a man whom he saw assaulting the woman in Berner St. on the night of the murder, was not addressed to the supposed accomplice but to Schwartz himself.

Does "the name Lipski which he alleges was used" sound like Anderson just thinks Schwartz could have been a bit confused, or that he is skeptical of Schwartz?

Does "the supposed accomplice" sound like Anderson had confidence in Schwartz?

I find it odd that all the following seem to be true:

* Almost all modern researchers believe Schwartz' story

* Schwartz was insistent that the assaulting man had an accomplice

* Almost no modern researchers agree with Schwartz, that the assaulting man had an accomplice

The attitude seems to be that Schwartz is believed, except for the bits that don't sound realistic.

If the general suspicion had been that Schwartz invented the incident, what would have been the point of putting any interpretation on what he described?

So Schwartz witnessed nothing, but the opinion arrived at based on his 'evidence' is that the name "Lipski" was addressed to him, and not to any supposed accomplice. That makes sense - not. Surely the opinion arrived at would have been that Schwartz was an attention-seeking fantasist.

Isn't this a simple case of a general acceptance that Schwartz did indeed witness an assault on the deceased, but that he most likely misunderstood why the assailant called out "Lipski", and he misinterpreted the role of Pipeman - who, in case anyone needs reminding, may have come forward to give his own account of the same incident?

[caz]

4. No, the attitude is, witnesses in general are truthful. Schwartz in particular had no reason to falsely place himself at the scene of a murder. And the fact that no one saw him can easily be explained very, very plausibly. And so we have zero reason to believe that he lied.
To show that he lied you need strong evidence. Fanny Mortimer and a mysterious unnamed couple are not by any stretch of the imagination strong evidence.

Hi Herlock,

We can't even be sure that no one did see Schwartz. If Pipeman did, he may have confirmed it, in order to clear himself of any suspicion.

But to extend this further, no one saw anyone engaging with Stride in the yard either, but there she was with her throat cut, so the killer was definitely there all by himself when it was done - unless it was the boot scraper wot dunnit.

So the idea that nothing can be believed if there was only one witness to it is patently absurd. Maybe this is why so many victims of abuse choose to suffer in silence, because there will always be a Doubting Thomas ready to put the boot in.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

We can't even be sure that no one did see Schwartz. If Pipeman did, he may have confirmed it, in order to clear himself of any suspicion.

But to extend this further, no one saw anyone engaging with Stride in the yard either, but there she was with her throat cut, so the killer was definitely there all by himself when it was done - unless it was the boot scraper wot dunnit.

So the idea that nothing can be believed if there was only one witness to it is patently absurd. Maybe this is why so many victims of abuse choose to suffer in silence, because there will always be a Doubting Thomas ready to put the boot in.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

No arguments from me on that point. We’re regularly asked why Mortimer didn’t see the Schwartz incident and this, to some, points to him not being there, but we know for an absolute certainty that Stride arrived at the gates as did her killer and yet Mortimer didn’t see them. Yet still it’s Schwartz the liar vs Fanny the reliable.