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  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Hi Andrew,

    "As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual." He gives the impression that he was ahead of his usual arrival time of 1:00.

    "on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground."
    From the inquest:
    A Juror: Could you in going up the yard have passed the body without touching it? - Oh, yes.
    [Coroner]
    Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it? - I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.
    Another example of Diemshitz changing his story.

    He said he alerted members on the ground floor and went with Koze with a match or a candle. It was after this point that they realised that there had been a murder, and Eagle would have still been upstairs. So Louis must have left before Koze.

    It has been suggested before that Louis may have discovered his wife passed out drunk on previous occasions.

    Cheers, George
    Hello George, I can’t see how this is a case of Louis changing his story? He’s saying that his cart came into contact with the ‘bundle.’ In the second quote he’s just saying that anyone (any person not on a horse and cart) could have walked through the passageway without touching the ‘bundle.’ There’s no changing of his statement at all.


    Regards

    Herlock Sholmes

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

      Hi George.

      If you follow the words of Mortimer, she said she was at the door, then "preparing to go to bed". It was just before that when she saw Goldstein was down the street.

      Mrs Artisan said she was "just before I turned in" when she saw Goldstein was up the street.

      Magically, both these women were "about to go to bed" when they saw Goldstein, with his black bag pass through the street. So it's hardly likely one woman saw him leave then the other woman saw him return. The two accounts imply the same time.

      It's not unusual for people to refer to "up the street", or "down the street", when referring to the same direction.
      Some will refer to "up" being the nearest main road (Commercial Rd.), whereas others will refer to "up" being the house numbers increase in that direction. So, in the first case "up" towards Commercial Rd., whereas to others "up" is towards Fairclough because the street numbers increase in that direction.

      The agency report (third account), though written in the first-person has no quotation marks, as opposed to the first account which does have quotation marks and offers a verbatim exchange. I point this out because a reporter (outsider) may have written the agency account, if you notice it was also the reporter (an outsider) who asked Mrs Artisan if she saw a man & woman walk "down" the street.
      In both cases the reporter (not a local person) used the expression "down".

      I would have to give the benefit of the doubt to the likelyhood they are the same woman.
      Hi Jon,

      I am having difficulty in refuting any of the points you have made. One curious thing about her statement is her saying "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.". If he was headed south along Berner this would place Mrs Artisan's observation platform south of the club confining it to Packer's shop or No42. Very confusing.

      Cheers, George
      “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

      Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again. - Andre Gide

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        Hello George, I can’t see how this is a case of Louis changing his story? He’s saying that his cart came into contact with the ‘bundle.’ In the second quote he’s just saying that anyone (any person not on a horse and cart) could have walked through the passageway without touching the ‘bundle.’ There’s no changing of his statement at all.
        Hi Herlock,

        I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.
        Story 1: Contact of cart with body, pony shies.
        Story 2: Pony shies, cart is past body without contact.

        Cheers, George
        “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

        Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again. - Andre Gide

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

          Hi Herlock,

          I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.
          Story 1: Contact of cart with body, pony shies.
          Story 2: Pony shies, cart is past body without contact.

          Cheers, George
          Hello George,

          Sorry but I’m not getting this. If the one that you’ve quoted is your ‘story 2’ then he mentions the horse shieing. Two story’s can often be worded differently without the teller making conscious or unconscious changes.

          What’s certainly worth pointing out, in regard to the question of ‘what happened to the horse and cart’ is this bit:

          . I had passed it when I got down from my barrow
          Regards

          Herlock Sholmes

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

            Hi Jon,

            I am having difficulty in refuting any of the points you have made. One curious thing about her statement is her saying "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.". If he was headed south along Berner this would place Mrs Artisan's observation platform south of the club confining it to Packer's shop or No42. Very confusing.

            Cheers, George
            Hi George.

            Yes, and that is the only point I feel doesn't fit.
            Mortimer appears to have thought Goldstein came from Comm. Rd. but looked up at the club as he passed, whereas Mrs Artisan feels he might have come from the club. Always assuming the reporter gave an accurate retelling of her story.
            Perhaps that is where the inconsistency lies, because all the other details match reasonably well.


            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

              Hello George, I can’t see how this is a case of Louis changing his story? He’s saying that his cart came into contact with the ‘bundle.’ In the second quote he’s just saying that anyone (any person not on a horse and cart) could have walked through the passageway without touching the ‘bundle.’ There’s no changing of his statement at all.

              With regards to "came in contact with", could this not simply mean when he was close enough that "things started happening" (as in his Pony shied, etc) and not literally physical contact. Just thinking we can "make contact with someone", which just means to communicate with them, and in a sense there's an interaction between Stride's body and Deimshutz and his cart that begins at that point. If this choice of description is the journalist's, and not Deimshutz's actual words, it could just be another example of journalistic flair in word choice (something we always have to consider in these types of newsstories. At least we have some papers presenting transcripts of the inquests, which should be closer to what the witness actually said).

              I'm just wondering if the conflicting statements only conflict due to our interpretation of the intended meaning rather than a conflict in the the intention of the speaker themself?

              - Jeff

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                With regards to "came in contact with", could this not simply mean when he was close enough that "things started happening" (as in his Pony shied, etc) and not literally physical contact. Just thinking we can "make contact with someone", which just means to communicate with them, and in a sense there's an interaction between Stride's body and Deimshutz and his cart that begins at that point. If this choice of description is the journalist's, and not Deimshutz's actual words, it could just be another example of journalistic flair in word choice (something we always have to consider in these types of newsstories. At least we have some papers presenting transcripts of the inquests, which should be closer to what the witness actually said).

                I'm just wondering if the conflicting statements only conflict due to our interpretation of the intended meaning rather than a conflict in the the intention of the speaker themself?

                - Jeff
                It’s a good point Jeff. When we know that these accounts weren’t verbatim reports I also think that we at least have to allow for the possibility of a bit of journalistic license. The second statement might have been in response to a question which might have been prompted by the journalist wondering if someone like Eagle could have passed through the yard normally without coming into contact with a body hidden in the shadows?
                Regards

                Herlock Sholmes

                Comment


                • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                  Hi Jon,

                  I am having difficulty in refuting any of the points you have made. One curious thing about her statement is her saying "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.". If he was headed south along Berner this would place Mrs Artisan's observation platform south of the club confining it to Packer's shop or No42. Very confusing.

                  Cheers, George
                  Given that Mortimer said she were at her door nearly all of twelve-thirty to one, and not a quarter to one and one, is the situation really confusing, or is there a simple explanation?

                  ...the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag...

                  If Mortimer is regarded as having been at her doorstep for only a single period, then the word 'previously' would be redundant. However, if 'nearly the whole time' is meant to convey that she was out, in, out, at least once, then we can interpret her words to mean this...

                  ...the only man whom I had seen pass through the street earlier was a young man carrying a black shiny bag...

                  Then, from the on-street interview, we have...

                  I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

                  On this occasion, the man does not pass through the street, but appears to have exited the club or yard. It seems Fanny Mortimer saw Leon Goldstein, twice.

                  If you're not happy with that explanation, then perhaps the following will be more palatable.

                  Mortimer: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this morning ... and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

                  Letchford: I passed through the street at half-past 12 and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at ten minutes to one, but did not see any one pass by.

                  Had Letchford been working in the bar on Hanbury street that night, he likely would have entered Berner street from Commercial Road. He was 22 in 1888.
                  Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                    Hi George.

                    Yes, and that is the only point I feel doesn't fit.
                    Mortimer appears to have thought Goldstein came from Comm. Rd. but looked up at the club as he passed, whereas Mrs Artisan feels he might have come from the club. Always assuming the reporter gave an accurate retelling of her story.
                    Perhaps that is where the inconsistency lies, because all the other details match reasonably well.

                    Hello Wick,

                    Without re-reading the actual quote (because I can’t find it) couldn’t it be that when Fanny came onto her doorstep Goldstein had already passed her door and was at the gates when she first saw him walking towards Fairclough Street leading to the suggestion that he might just have left the club?

                    Alternatively could a Press error be possible? If Fanny said something like “he might have been from the club,” she might have meant that his Jewish appearance might have led her to suspect that he might have been a member? The Reporter might have written this as if he actually came from the club at the to] time that she saw him?
                    Regards

                    Herlock Sholmes

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                      Hello Wick,

                      Without re-reading the actual quote (because I can’t find it) couldn’t it be that when Fanny came onto her doorstep Goldstein had already passed her door and was at the gates when she first saw him walking towards Fairclough Street leading to the suggestion that he might just have left the club?

                      Alternatively could a Press error be possible? If Fanny said something like “he might have been from the club,” she might have meant that his Jewish appearance might have led her to suspect that he might have been a member? The Reporter might have written this as if he actually came from the club at the to] time that she saw him?
                      I was wondering something similar as it sounds like she's answering a question from the reporter. The "he might have come from the club" could just mean earlier in the evening, but she didn't see him come from there (since he had to have come from somewhere he might have come from the club, but she doesn't know). Herlock's suggestion is good too, and her statement may be more indicating he might have been a club member, as opposed to having just exited the club.

                      Given how she describes his position it is hard to understand how she would suggest he had just come out of the club, which is what makes me think she's been prompted by the reporter on that point.

                      - Jeff

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                        The next report is buried within a long account where Mortimer's observations are given in the third-person. "Two doors from the club", is the same as "three doors from the gateway".
                        "A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so".....etc.

                        In my view this may be a copied story, and as I do a search I find this same account has been copied from the Daily News of the same date.
                        Sure it's copied from the DN (which I already knew), but that doesn't say anything as to why the woman in this report is unnamed and unquoted, in spite of her supposedly making an 'important statement'.

                        That report also makes some dubious claims. For example "The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time." So the street was unusually quiet and deserted? So why when the on-street interviewer asks Mortimer "Was the street quiet at the time?", does she reply...?

                        Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say.

                        This contradicts the unquoted report, even before mention is made of the man with the black bag. One might assume that the 'important statement' would include a mention of this man, but the report says nothing about him.

                        As you know I speculated that the source of the unquoted report may have been a detective from the vigilance committee. It's interesting to contrast a part of that report with the EN's Oct 4 report on Packer.

                        Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

                        What they (Grand and Batchelor) go to establish is that the perpetrator of the Berner street crime was seen and spoken to whilst in the company of his victim, within forty minutes of the commission of the crime and only passed from the sight of a witness TEN MINUTES BEFORE THE MURDER and within ten yards of the scene of the awful deed.

                        I wonder if these references to 10 minutes, refer to the same 10 minutes, and the supposed perpetrator of the crime is the man with the black bag?
                        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                          That report also makes some dubious claims. For example "The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time." So the street was unusually quiet and deserted? So why when the on-street interviewer asks Mortimer "Was the street quiet at the time?", does she reply...?

                          Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say.
                          There was activity inside the club but the street itself was quiet. It seems pretty clear what she meant.
                          Regards

                          Herlock Sholmes

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                            There was activity inside the club but the street itself was quiet. It seems pretty clear what she meant.
                            It is clear. There were a few people on the street, and there was noise coming from the club. So the street was neither completely quiet, nor deserted. So the unquoted report gets that wrong, and evidently the man with the black bag was not the only man she witnessed. Perhaps she witnessed the board school couple, perhaps others, or others as well. Perhaps those others were in the near vicinity of the club. It is also pretty clear that the man with the black bag seemed to have just walked out of the club or yard, and was heading north.
                            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                            Comment


                            • The first one says - quiet and deserted - talking about the street.
                              The second one says - there was hardly anyone in the street and the only sound was from the club.

                              It’s just wording.
                              Regards

                              Herlock Sholmes

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                                On this occasion, the man does not pass through the street, but appears to have exited the club or yard. It seems Fanny Mortimer saw Leon Goldstein, twice.

                                .
                                You won’t let this one go will you? She saw Goldstein once. If she’d seen him twice she would have said that she’d seen him twice.

                                Regards

                                Herlock Sholmes

                                Comment

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