Whistling on Berner Street

[GBinOz]

Yes but in that context with the use of the word ‘about’ he was clearly uncertain. If he’d just checked a clock why would he have said this? You’ve accepted clocks can be out. Although it can’t state it as a proven fact George I tend to think that he’d probably checked the club clock at perhaps around 12.00ish and just estimated the time gap between then and the moment that he first heard that a body had been discovered. Obviously he’d have had no reason to log the time as he’d dashed to see the body. It’s not impossible that he was unaware of the time that he’d gone downstairs and so asked the question when talking to another club member. If that member was Kozebrodski who estimated 12.40 then he might have just said to the Police “about 12.45” because Koz had already been in the yard when he got there and Koz?

Whatever the explanation George I’m absolutely convinced that there was nothing sinister going on. Just understandable errors, especially under the circumstances.

Hi Herlock,

I'm not seeing anything sinister either. Herschburg and Kozebrodski were quoting times from the club clock which was not in sync with the clock used by the police or the doctor. They were not lying or wrong, they just had a clock that had a sync error. They may have been estimating times from that clock, but so was nearly everyone else, just from different clocks.

I think that Herschburg was upstairs in the club at the time. I'm sure that I read a statement to that effect but I can't find it at present.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The use of the word ‘there’ as opposed to ‘here’ is dependent on where he was when he was interviewed. If he was interviewed at home then why would he have said ‘here?’

This is a rather amusing statement, coming from someone who complains of "your stating of an opinion as a fact, again". If he wasn't at his home, your whole argument collapses, and so by insisting that Herschburg was in the club at the time, and that he referred to 'there', from home, it is you who are stating opinion as fact.

So where was Herschburg at the time of the interview? The reporter who interviewed him and others, was on the street ...

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

The very next line reads ...

The young fellow who had previously spoken gave some further details at some length on the finding of the body by Lewis, but he could give no further facts that those given in the above statements.

So there is Abraham Herschburg, standing right outside the club, adding details to his previous statement. When he refers to 'there' and 'they', he is indicating that he is not one of them.

Apparently at this point, he was still not aware of the steward's name. It would also seem that the locals (probably the English ones), knew of Mr Diemschitz as Mr Lewis. So who were the friends of the steward that told a reporter that 'Lewis' had returned at about 12:45? These friends seem to have told Mrs Artisan/Mortimer, similar details (either that, or she was an interview dwelling busybody). A terrifying possibility (for some) is that the friends were club members.

The point about Koster could simply have meant that he’d heard the story about Koster and knew that it was untrue and that the body had been discovered by the steward of the club.

If he'd only been told the name Koster, as opposed to the whole story, then how would he know that that was not the name of the man with the pony and cart? He wouldn't, of course, and so he must have heard the story as well. So when did hear the story? When he was inside the club? When he went home perhaps? Or was it when he was being interviewed on the street? Why would someone in the club be telling the Koster story, unless it was true? So I guess you're wrong about him being interviewed at home (twice), unless his father told him the Koster story.

If a man is a member of a club it doesn’t follow that he knows the name of every single member. Especially someone like Diemschitz who had a job away from the club which would have meant that he wasn’t there all of the time.

We also can’t know how long Hoschberg had been visiting the club? He might have only visited a few times.

So Herschburg had encyclopedic knowledge of everything to do with the club, the yard, the workers, the discovery, and the state of the victim, but the one thing this supposed member did not know, was the name of the man who discovered the body, who was also the steward! Even after (supposedly) being locked in the yard for hours, he still didn't manage to find out. Right.

Can we state that only members visited the club or is that another assumption? There are clubs all over the country where people can visit regularly without ever becoming an actual member so how can we know that Hoschberg wasn’t just an occasional visitor?

Well lets' see ...

AH: [I] came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground ...

Arbeter Fraint: “Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body.

Any non-members mentioned there? Anyone named Herschburg?

Why does he only “suppose” that it’s a Socialist club? Well firstly the name of the club doesn’t include the word Socialist so it wasn’t a given. Secondly, at that time Socialist was considered by the establishment to have been almost synonymous with Republican or Revolutionary, Anarchist or even potential terrorist. So it’s understandable that he might have been reluctant to admit that he might have had socialist sympathies too.

Then why not just a call it a workingmen's club, which does match part of the name?

By the way, this is what the reporter said about the club ...

... No. 40 Berner street, which is occupied by the International Workingmen's Education Society - a club of Jewish Socialists, mostly of foreign extraction who, judging from statements made this morning in the neighbourhood, are not in very good odour with their orthodox co-religionists.

Apparently, the nature of the club was no secret.

”Came down” implies that he was upstairs of course even though you’ll deny this.

In the course of an interview with a witness shortly after 6 o'clock this morning Abraham Heshberg, a young fellow, living at 20 Berner street, said- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway.

The reporter is implying that he came down from 20 Berner street. No mention at all is made of him being at the club, or having any association with it.

Then we have Wess saying:

“…the bulk of the people present then left the premises by the street door entrance, while between 20 and 30 members remained behind in the large room, and about a dozen were downstairs.”

Clearly meaning that some were upstairs.

And Morris Eagle:

“As soon as I entered the club I went to see a friend, who was in the upstairs room, and who was singing a song in the Russian language.”

…..

I'm quite aware that people were upstairs. These people were interacting - singing, dancing, talking politics. The idea that one of them alone would hear a whistle, seemingly not mention it to anyone else, and then go downstairs alone, is totally ludicrous.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>>Coroner: Would you have heard a cry of distress? Wess: If it had been the cry of a woman for help, or of "Murder," I think we should have heard it, even although there was singing and dancing in the club.
If only those three screams had not been so soft, I should think they would have been able to come to her aid.<<

Surely Baxter was asking Wess if cries from the murder site would be heard. The Schwartz cries happened in the street outside the gates. Hardly comparable.

Surely for the sake of Israel Schwartz, we should believe that those extra 3 yards would have made all the difference.

[MrBarnett]

Was anyone living at 20, Berner Street in 1888? There wasn’t in 1881, 1887 or 1891 - it was the site of the old Board School.

[MrBarnett]

Was anyone living at 20, Berner Street in 1888? There wasn’t in 1881, 1887 or 1891 - it was the site of the old Board School.

Why couldn’t Hershberg have lived at 40 Berner Street but not been a member of the club?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Was anyone living at 20, Berner Street in 1888? There wasn’t in 1881, 1887 or 1891 - it was the site of the old Board School.

Daily News, Oct 1:

Abraham Heshburg, a young fellow, living at 28, Berner-street, said:

Does that help?

[MrBarnett]

The 1887 Booth survey shows a clear distinction between 40, Berner Street proper and the ‘house beyond the gates’ which it describes as a ‘Socialist Club “Jews”’

There were 3 households living at 40, BS, which was a 3-storied premises, and 1 in the club building. The club premises housed its caretaker (supposed to be a tailor) and his family, and attracted the comments ‘a dirty lot’ and ‘a regular hell’.

[MrBarnett]

Daily News, Oct 1:

Abraham Heshburg, a young fellow, living at 28, Berner-street, said:

Does that help?

It does indeed. There was no one living there in 1891, but there was a tailor in residence in 1887.

Was 20 your typo or a press error?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It does indeed. There was no one living there in 1891, but there was a tailor in residence in 1887.

Was 20 your typo or a press error?

Copy & paste

According to Tom Wescott in RC:

At #28 we find the residence of Nathan and Ester Ashbrigh and their five children. Their eldest son, Abraham, is the young man referred to in the press at the time as 'Hoshberg', 'Heshburg', and 'Heahbury'. The young assertive and seemingly bright Abraham was 17 at the time of Stride's death.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This is a rather amusing statement, coming from someone who complains of "your stating of an opinion as a fact, again". If he wasn't at his home, your whole argument collapses, and so by insisting that Herschburg was in the club at the time, and that he referred to 'there', from home, it is you who are stating opinion as fact.

I don’t have a ‘whole argument,’ you’re clearly the one with the agenda here.


There’s a world of difference between your ‘leaps of faith’ and me suggesting that ‘down’ implies going ‘down’ the stairs and that ‘there’ implies a location not presently occupied by the speaker. You after all are the one claiming to know what Hoschberg would or wouldn’t have known when this certainly is an unknown.


So where was Herschburg at the time of the interview? The reporter who interviewed him and others, was on the street ...

So he wasn’t in the yard therefore the word ‘there’ is perfectly logical.

In order to inquire further into these matters, the reporter next visited the club referred to , a rather low class little building covered with posters, most of them in the Hebrew language. Mrs Lewis, wife of the steward, as she explained, was standing at the door in the centre of a host of people, but she declined to call on her husband, who had been up all night, and had only just gone to bed. Pressed to speak as to the character of the club, Mrs Lewis was inclined to be retired, but a young man in the crowd volunteered an explanation of the institution. "You see," he explained, "the members are bad Jews - Jews who do not heed their religion, and they annoy those who do in order to show contempt for the religion. In the Black Fast a week or two ago, for instance, they had a banquet, and ostentatiously ate and drank, while we might do neither. They hold concerts there till early in the morning, and women and girls are brought there." "Were they here last night?" asked the reporter. "No" said Mrs Lewis, "there was only a concert and discussion on last night."

The very next line reads ...

The young fellow who had previously spoken gave some further details at some length on the finding of the body by Lewis, but he could give no further facts that those given in the above statements.

So there is Abraham Herschburg, standing right outside the club, adding details to his previous statement. When he refers to 'there' and 'they', he is indicating that he is not one of them.

Why do you assume that this is Hoschberg? This could have been someone else.

Apparently at this point, he was still not aware of the steward's name. It would also seem that the locals (probably the English ones), knew of Mr Diemschitz as Mr Lewis. So who were the friends of the steward that told a reporter that 'Lewis' had returned at about 12:45? These friends seem to have told Mrs Artisan/Mortimer, similar details (either that, or she was an interview dwelling busybody). A terrifying possibility (for some) is that the friends were club members.

Even though the man isn’t named you assume that it’s Hoschberg? I’m only surprised that with your approach you don’t come u with even more cover-ups and plots. You assume that you know unnamed people, you assume that you know what people should or shouldn’t have known. You should have solved the case by now.



If he'd only been told the name Koster, as opposed to the whole story, then how would he know that that was not the name of the man with the pony and cart? He wouldn't, of course, and so he must have heard the story as well. So when did hear the story? When he was inside the club? When he went home perhaps? Or was it when he was being interviewed on the street? Why would someone in the club be telling the Koster story, unless it was true? So I guess you're wrong about him being interviewed at home (twice), unless his father told him the Koster story.

Do we know when this interview took place?

So Herschburg had encyclopedic knowledge of everything to do with the club, the yard, the workers, the discovery, and the state of the victim, but the one thing this supposed member did not know, was the name of the man who discovered the body, who was also the steward! Even after (supposedly) being locked in the yard for hours, he still didn't manage to find out. Right.

Exaggeration of course.

Well lets' see ...

AH: [I] came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground ...

Arbeter Fraint: “Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body.

Any non-members mentioned there? Anyone named Herschburg?

No, but then again Hoschberg had only seen the other body. The one that was discovered at 12.45.

The above statement proves nothing as you well know.

Then why not just a call it a workingmen's club, which does match part of the name?

By the way, this is what the reporter said about the club ...

... No. 40 Berner street, which is occupied by the International Workingmen's Education Society - a club of Jewish Socialists, mostly of foreign extraction who, judging from statements made this morning in the neighbourhood, are not in very good odour with their orthodox co-religionists.

Apparently, the nature of the club was no secret.

I’m not saying that it was a secret but Hoschberg might simply have been a little reluctant to admit to being in a club of that nature.

In the course of an interview with a witness shortly after 6 o'clock this morning Abraham Heshberg, a young fellow, living at 20 Berner street, said- "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway.

The reporter is implying that he came down from 20 Berner street. No mention at all is made of him being at the club, or having any association with it.

He’s implying nothing.

I'm quite aware that people were upstairs. These people were interacting - singing, dancing, talking politics. The idea that one of them alone would hear a whistle, seemingly not mention it to anyone else, and then go downstairs alone, is totally ludicrous.

Yet you said: “Last but not least, no one from the club is on record as saying they were upstairs” And I quoted Eagle…..who said exactly that.

It’s not important to me where Hoschberg was when he first learned of events in Dutfield’s Yard and I can’t really see why it’s so important to you unless you have conspiracy #12 lined up and it’s vital for Hoschberg to have been at home? Was he the Ripper as well? My own position is that ‘down’ implies that he came downstairs like Eagle and Gilleman. Maybe he was at home? Nothing proves it though.

[MrBarnett]

Copy & paste

According to Tom Wescott in RC:

At #28 we find the residence of Nathan and Ester Ashbrigh and their five children. Their eldest son, Abraham, is the young man referred to in the press at the time as 'Hoshberg', 'Heshburg', and 'Heahbury'. The young assertive and seemingly bright Abraham was 17 at the time of Stride's death.

Ah, yes, they were there in 1881. Nathan was a tailor and Abraham was recorded as being 10. He had a younger brother, Morris, 8, and three older sisters.

The head of the household in 1887 was a tailor and he had 1 daughter and two sons at work, so that could well be the same family.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don’t have a ‘whole argument,’ you’re clearly the one with the agenda here.

Yes I do; to identify JtR. You're clearly opposed to that.

There’s a world of difference between your ‘leaps of faith’ and me suggesting that ‘down’ implies going ‘down’ the stairs and that ‘there’ implies a location not presently occupied by the speaker. You after all are the one claiming to know what Hoschberg would or wouldn’t have known when this certainly is an unknown.

I'm claiming to know that Herschburg did not know the name of the steward.

The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market.

Cleary I'm making an absurd leap of faith, in coming to this conclusion.

So he wasn’t in the yard therefore the word ‘there’ is perfectly logical.

Standing outside the club, use of the words 'we' and 'here', would have implied a personal association. The following does not ...

They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane.

If it is so obvious that 'came down' means he came downstairs, then why would he continually speak as an outsider? Is he trying to hide his association with the club? If yes, then why would he also imply that he came down the club stairs? Doesn't make sense. He came down from 28 Berner street.

I’m not saying that it was a secret but Hoschberg might simply have been a little reluctant to admit to being in a club of that nature.

You mean a club occupied by rough Anarchists? Is that why he said ...?

There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested.

I don't think he was holding back, at all.

I'm quite aware that people were upstairs. These people were interacting - singing, dancing, talking politics. The idea that one of them alone would hear a whistle, seemingly not mention it to anyone else, and then go downstairs alone, is totally ludicrous.

Yet you said: “Last but not least, no one from the club is on record as saying they were upstairs” And I quoted Eagle…..who said exactly that.

You misquoted me. Deliberately, of course.

Last but not least, no one from the club is on record as saying they were upstairs or anywhere else at the time, and heard a whistle before the police arrived.

It’s not important to me where Hoschberg was when he first learned of events in Dutfield’s Yard and I can’t really see why it’s so important to you unless you have conspiracy #12 lined up and it’s vital for Hoschberg to have been at home? Was he the Ripper as well? My own position is that ‘down’ implies that he came downstairs like Eagle and Gilleman. Maybe he was at home? Nothing proves it though.

It's not important to you? Is that why you didn't bother arguing the issue?

If Herschburg was at home and heard a policeman's whistle, then the whistler was likely a WVC patrolman on the street, who became aware of the situation at the yard, at a very early stage. There are several possible implications of this, including what he might have seen just prior and after the murder, what happened at the gates in the immediate aftermath of the discovery, his possible link to Schwartz's account, and the two men who may have been known to each other. Discussing these possibilities was part of my intention when starting this thread, but rather predictably, it never happened. Too far removed from the Standard Model of Berner Street, I guess. However, as the theory that a man on WVC patrol was responsible for the early whistle, has not been challenged, these are totally valid points for discussion. Those with more orthodox views will probably disagree though, and by all means, call it conspiracy theory if it makes you feel better.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ah, yes, they were there in 1881. Nathan was a tailor and Abraham was recorded as being 10. He had a younger brother, Morris, 8, and three older sisters.

The head of the household in 1887 was a tailor and he had 1 daughter and two sons at work, so that could well be the same family.

Thanks for the info. So Herschburg's family name was indeed Ashbrigh?

What is your take on Louis Diemschitz being referred to in the press as 'Mr Lewis'? Is it possible the locals knew him by that name? Why 'Mr Lewis' and not 'Mr Louis'?

Interestingly, there was a club member of first name Lewis.

Wess: I went into the club and called my brother, and we went home together-going into the street together with Lewis Selzi, who lives close to us.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. I'm claiming to know that Herschburg did not know the name of the steward.

The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market.

Cleary I'm making an absurd leap of faith, in coming to this conclusion

As you well know, the ‘leap’ that I’m talking about isn’t that he actually said this but the fact that you find it mysterious. We don’t know how long that he’d been a member (if he was a member) or how often he attended the club? So we can’t assume that he’d have known Diemschitz name. You make that assumption though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Standing outside the club, use of the words 'we' and 'here', would have implied a personal association. The following does not ...

They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane.

If it is so obvious that 'came down' means he came downstairs, then why would he continually speak as an outsider? Is he trying to hide his association with the club? If yes, then why would he also imply that he came down the club stairs? Doesn't make sense. He came down from 28 Berner street

As ever you ignore the fact that these were Press interviews. Reporters who would take notes then write them up for printing later. They aren’t verbatim recordings so we have to keep in mind the possibility that words used might not have been the exact words spoken.

If the quote beginning “They have demonstrations…..” is accurate (and it might be) then the use of ‘they’ might signify 2 things. 1) that he might not actually have been a member, and 2) that ‘they’ meant the committee. The people that ran the club.

“Up there,” indicates upstairs.

Without stronger evidence (or just evidence) your claim to certainty about where Hoschberg came from holds no water.

…..

It’s noticeable that those who claim that Fanny was on her doorstep at 12.45 don’t question why she didn’t see Hoschberg passing?