Whistling on Berner Street

[drstrange169]

>> Koster <<

A coster found the body, Chinese Whispers move into the neighbourhood and off we go.

[Herlock Sholmes]

>> Koster <<

A coster found the body, Chinese Whispers move into the neighbourhood and off we go.

Surely this is the most reasonable explanation.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> Koster <<

A coster found the body, Chinese Whispers move into the neighbourhood and off we go.

Apparently Louis also went by the name, Joseph.

You lot don't like any evidence that strays from the standard story, do you?

[drstrange169]

So Bucks Row and Hanbury St were only 200 yards from Dutfields yard?



By 7:00 a new story, still not right, replaced the old one.



And so the old story about Koster was dismissed and new version circulated.

[GBinOz]

. "I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think
Cleary guessing and clearly wrong.

Definition of I should/would think
1—used to say that one believes that something is true, that a particular situation exists, that something will happen, etc."Is she still in college?" "Well, yes. I should/would think so."
2—used to express one's opinion that something should exist or happenI should/would think he would apologize.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Definition of I should/would think
1—used to say that one believes that something is true, that a particular situation exists, that something will happen, etc."Is she still in college?" "Well, yes. I should/would think so."
2—used to express one's opinion that something should exist or happenI should/would think he would apologize.

Yes but in that context with the use of the word ‘about’ he was clearly uncertain. If he’d just checked a clock why would he have said this? You’ve accepted clocks can be out. Although it can’t state it as a proven fact George I tend to think that he’d probably checked the club clock at perhaps around 12.00ish and just estimated the time gap between then and the moment that he first heard that a body had been discovered. Obviously he’d have had no reason to log the time as he’d dashed to see the body. It’s not impossible that he was unaware of the time that he’d gone downstairs and so asked the question when talking to another club member. If that member was Kozebrodski who estimated 12.40 then he might have just said to the Police “about 12.45” because Koz had already been in the yard when he got there and Koz?

Whatever the explanation George I’m absolutely convinced that there was nothing sinister going on. Just understandable errors, especially under the circumstances.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Apparently Louis also went by the name, Joseph.

What evidence is there for this ‘apparently?’

You lot don't like any evidence that strays from the standard story, do you?

And you don’t like any evidence that points away from the sinister.

If the Police took up your methods there wouldn’t be enough cells in the country. Why are you so averse to prosaic explanations? That’s what life is like for the vast majority of the time. To quote again the well known phrase by Sagan: “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” But to prove something sinister went on all that you have is stuff like someone, via the Press, using ‘up’ and ‘down.’ A couple of people estimating times that are 15 minutes out. This is the weakest of weak stuff and this is why you have to resort to imagination. To the knitting together of various disparate threads to weave a scenario. Then when others suggest a calmer approach you have to resort to the laughable ‘defending the orthodoxy’ claim.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

1.00

Is that 01:00 GMT, or 01:00 Very Reasonable Margin of Error Time?

Cleary guessing and clearly wrong.

Do you mean 12:45 GMT was wrong, or 12:45 Very Reasonable Margin of Error Time, was wrong?

It seems to me that your assignment of Very Reasonable Margins of Error, is Very Selective.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is that 01:00 GMT, or 01:00 Very Reasonable Margin of Error Time?



Do you mean 12:45 GMT was wrong, or 12:45 Very Reasonable Margin of Error Time, was wrong?

It seems to me that your assignment of Very Reasonable Margins of Error, is Very Selective.

How am I being selective? Your the one who appears to be averse to applying a reasonable margin for error. Just like certain posters on the Lechmere thread who need to narrow down to exact times to make a point.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes but in that context with the use of the word ‘about’ he was clearly uncertain. If he’d just checked a clock why would he have said this? You’ve accepted clocks can be out. Although it can’t state it as a proven fact George I tend to think that he’d probably checked the club clock at perhaps around 12.00ish and just estimated the time gap between then and the moment that he first heard that a body had been discovered. Obviously he’d have had no reason to log the time as he’d dashed to see the body. It’s not impossible that he was unaware of the time that he’d gone downstairs and so asked the question when talking to another club member. If that member was Kozebrodski who estimated 12.40 then he might have just said to the Police “about 12.45” because Koz had already been in the yard when he got there and Koz?

It's time this "Herschburg was in the club" nonsense, was put to bed. He clearly speaks as an outsider ...

"I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat. I should think she was 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctor had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or at all events unfastened, but I don't think the yard is one which is used by loose women. There are some stables in there - Messrs Duncan, Woollatt, and Cade I believe - and there is a place to which a lot of girls take home sacks which they have been engaged in making. None of these would be there though after about 1 o'clock on Saturday afternoon. None of us recognised the woman. I don't think she belongs to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably. There seemed to be no wounds on the body About the club? Oh, yes, it would be open till 2 or 3 this morning. I suppose it is a Socialist club, and there are generally rows there. Both men and women go there. They [not 'we'] have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they [not 'we'] have a stage and plane. There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested."

If he'd been in the club, he wouldn't be saying 'there', he would be saying 'here'. That alone tells us that he wasn't there at the time of the discovery.

His reference to Koster is also a very big hint. He appears to know of this man by name - some random who was walking along Berner street at around the time of the discovery - but somehow he doesn't know the name of the club steward, who lives at the club with his wife. Rather strange for a man who has all that knowledge and information to offer, yet he doesn't know the name 'Louis Diemschitz'.

He also supposes it is a Socialist Club. How could not know for sure, if he'd been in the club and therefore presumably a member?

Wess: It is a Socialist club. Nobody who is elected as a member is supposed to be an anything but a Socialist, and it is understood that no member is proposed who does not conform to Socialistic principles.

A club member would be unlikely to volunteer information about rows at the club, that led to arrests.

Last but not least, no one from the club is on record as saying they were upstairs or anywhere else at the time, and heard a whistle before the police arrived.

Herschburg was not in club at the time of the discovery, and he was not a member.

Whatever the explanation George I’m absolutely convinced that there was nothing sinister going on. Just understandable errors, especially under the circumstances.

Define 'sinister', for this context.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If the Police took up your methods there wouldn’t be enough cells in the country.

That is quite ironic, coming from a Schwartzist.

The Star: In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts. If every man should be arrested who was known to have been seen in company with an abandoned woman in that locality on last Saturday night, the police-stations would not hold them.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's time this "Herschburg was in the club" nonsense, was put to bed. He clearly speaks as an outsider ...

"I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to 1 o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter in the gateway. Two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between 4 and 5 inches long in her throat. I should think she was 25 to 28 years of age. Her head was towards the north wall, against which she was lying. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous. The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctor had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or at all events unfastened, but I don't think the yard is one which is used by loose women. There are some stables in there - Messrs Duncan, Woollatt, and Cade I believe - and there is a place to which a lot of girls take home sacks which they have been engaged in making. None of these would be there though after about 1 o'clock on Saturday afternoon. None of us recognised the woman. I don't think she belongs to this neighbourhood. She was dressed very respectably. There seemed to be no wounds on the body About the club? Oh, yes, it would be open till 2 or 3 this morning. I suppose it is a Socialist club, and there are generally rows there. Both men and women go there. They have demonstrations up there, and concerts, for which they have a stage and plane. There was a row there last Sunday night. It went on till about 2 in the morning, and in the end two people were arrested."

If he'd been in the club, he wouldn't be saying 'there', he would be saying 'here'. That alone tells us that he wasn't there at the time of the discovery.

His reference to Koster is also a very big hint. He appears to know of this man by name - some random who was walking along Berner street at around the time of the discovery - but somehow he doesn't know the name of the club steward, who lives at the club with his wife. Rather strange for a man who has all that knowledge and information to offer, yet he doesn't know the name 'Louis Diemschitz'.

He also supposes it is a Socialist Club. How could not know for sure, if he'd been in the club and therefore presumably a member?

Wess: It is a Socialist club. Nobody who is elected as a member is supposed to be an anything but a Socialist, and it is understood that no member is proposed who does not conform to Socialistic principles.

A club member would be unlikely to volunteer information about rows at the club, that led to arrests.

Last but not least, no one from the club is on record as saying they were upstairs or anywhere else at the time, and heard a whistle before the police arrived.

Herschburg was not in club at the time of the discovery, and he was not a member.




Define 'sinister', for this context.

The use of the word ‘there’ as opposed to ‘here’ is dependent on where he was when he was interviewed. If he was interviewed at home then why would he have said ‘here?’

The point about Koster could simply have meant that he’d heard the story about Koster and knew that it was untrue and that the body had been discovered by the steward of the club.

If a man is a member of a club it doesn’t follow that he knows the name of every single member. Especially someone like Diemschitz who had a job away from the club which would have meant that he wasn’t there all of the time.

We also can’t know how long Hoschberg had been visiting the club? He might have only visited a few times.

Can we state that only members visited the club or is that another assumption? There are clubs all over the country where people can visit regularly without ever becoming an actual member so how can we know that Hoschberg wasn’t just an occasional visitor?

Why does he only “suppose” that it’s a Socialist club? Well firstly the name of the club doesn’t include the word Socialist so it wasn’t a given. Secondly, at that time Socialist was considered by the establishment to have been almost synonymous with Republican or Revolutionary, Anarchist or even potential terrorist. So it’s understandable that he might have been reluctant to admit that he might have had socialist sympathies too.


”Came down” implies that he was upstairs of course even though you’ll deny this.

Then we have Wess saying:

“…the bulk of the people present then left the premises by the street door entrance, while between 20 and 30 members remained behind in the large room, and about a dozen were downstairs.”

Clearly meaning that some were upstairs.

And Morris Eagle:

“As soon as I entered the club I went to see a friend, who was in the upstairs room, and who was singing a song in the Russian language.”

…..

Glad to have been able to ‘put to bed’ your stating of an opinion as a fact, again.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That is quite ironic, coming from a Schwartzist.

The Star: In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts. If every man should be arrested who was known to have been seen in company with an abandoned woman in that locality on last Saturday night, the police-stations would not hold them.

The Police very obviously didn’t see everything and everyone as being evidence of a plot. In fact the Police who interviewed everyone face to face and knew far more than we did and were in a position to check times/alibis etc saw nothing suspicious.

Do you think that not one single officer said “hold on, these two blokes Hoschberg and Kozebrodski say they were in the yard with the body before Diemschitz said that he’d got back.” You don’t think that they might have looked into it a little closer than we’re able to? Don’t you think that’s it’s possible (or even likely) that they did and came to the clear conclusion that these two were out in their estimations?

This is one of the problems in looking at certain aspects of the case. While we have to accept the limitations of police knowledge at the time it doesn’t mean that Officers (especially one’s like Abberline) were complete bunglers who couldn’t see a possible issue when it stared them in the face.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Definition of I should/would think
1—used to say that one believes that something is true, that a particular situation exists, that something will happen, etc."Is she still in college?" "Well, yes. I should/would think so."
2—used to express one's opinion that something should exist or happenI should/would think he would apologize.

Here's an example similar to 2:

Coroner: Would you have heard a cry of distress?
Wess: If it had been the cry of a woman for help, or of "Murder," I think we should have heard it, even although there was singing and dancing in the club.

Poor Liz Stride. If only those three screams had not been so soft, I should think they would have been able to come to her aid. For some reason she kept her voice down when being assaulted, while two other men fled the scene in terror. Or so the story goes.

[drstrange169]

>>Coroner: Would you have heard a cry of distress? Wess: If it had been the cry of a woman for help, or of "Murder," I think we should have heard it, even although there was singing and dancing in the club.
If only those three screams had not been so soft, I should think they would have been able to come to her aid.<<

Surely Baxter was asking Wess if cries from the murder site would be heard. The Schwartz cries happened in the street outside the gates. Hardly comparable.