Whistling on Berner Street

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for butting in with your post above. Yours is exactly the kind of reply I would have given, if I would have felt like doing so. But I don't, since the answers seem so obvious to me, the little that we do have is called into question for no good reason and, therefore, the speculation is so useless.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Speculation serves its purposes in that it can demonstrate how infinite the possibilities become when one ventures into the unknown. There are no constraints, and the story can become whatever we imagine. But "here there be monsters" applies, because it is very easy to think that the story one comes up is the one true path through the darkness. The less evidence we have, the greater the number of possible explanations, and as a result, the lower the probability for any given explanation.

- Jeff

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

Thanks for that. I think that any ‘mystery’ as to why he didn’t come forward straight away comes to an end then.

I'll believe it when I see it, Michael.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'll believe it when I see it, Michael.

Me too Frank.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi George,

I'm not sure one should go so far as to say the evidence is against her seeing Goldstein only once. Rather, one possible interpretation of the two news reports can been seen that way. However, as Wickerman pointed out, the directional information contained in "up" and "down" is not exactly unambiguous. Personally, I think I use them interchangeably, and if I were telling the same story twice I could very easily see me using up the street on one occasion and down the street on another.

To add to Wickerman's two usages (up meaning towards the major area, which would be Commerical, or up meaning as the house numbers go, which means towards Fairclough), the terms can also be used relative to the observer; a person is coming "up" the road if they walking towards them, but once they pass and are heading away, they are going down the road. Doesn't matter which end of the street, just whether they are coming towards or heading away. So, if FM is telling her story on two occasions, and she's seen Goldstein traverse the entire street, for part of his journey he is coming up the road then he passed her, and is going down the road. The previously also reads to me as others have suggested, rather than indicating a second time of sighting she's indicating her previous time on the step at that point.

So the interpretation of two sightings, while it can be made, is based upon having found an ambiguity between two different tellings, in neither of which does she actually explicitly say she saw him on two occasions, rather that's an alternative interpretation of how the reporter presented he story (which, of course, then makes us have to be cautious about whose words are we interpreting here?)

Thanks for the philosophy. Now let's get back to the evidence.

What did William Marshall say about the couple when they left the spot at which he had observed them?

They went away down the street, towards Ellen-street. They would not then pass No. 40 (the club).

How did the young woman who walked with her sweetheart, describe her journey?

DN: From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. ... I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street."

What did Abraham Herschburg say about his short trip to the yard?

DN: Abraham Heshburg, a young fellow, living at 28, Berner-street, said: Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter.

What did Lamb say about his path along Berner street?

Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder." I said, "Where?" As they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down the street. Seeing people moving about some distance down Berner-street, I ran down that street followed by Constable 426 H.

What did Smith say?

S: I do not remember passing any one on my way down Berner street.

S: Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.
C: Did you go up Berner-street into Commercial-road?
S: No I turned up Fairclough-street.

C: Was she on the pavement?
S: Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.

How did the coroner interpret 'a few yards up Berner-street', in his summing up?

At 12:30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street...

How did Fanny Mortimer describe the man with a black bag, when she saw him coming from Commercial Road?

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

How did Fanny describe the man who appeared to have come from the club?

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

The evidence is unambiguous. To go up Berner street means to go toward Commercial Road. To go down that street means to go toward Ellen street.

I have a vague memory of a police report indicating they did check on Goldstein's story and it checked out, but often those vague memories turn out to be false. If anyone knows of a report where the police do state they verified his whereabouts (at the teahouse, or whatever it was), that would be great to know.

Given how many times someone has asserted the Goldstein was investigated and cleared, I'm not surprised you have a false memory.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for the philosophy. Now let's get back to the evidence.

What did William Marshall say about the couple when they left the spot at which he had observed them?

They went away down the street, towards Ellen-street. They would not then pass No. 40 (the club).

How did the young woman who walked with her sweetheart, describe her journey?

DN: From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. ... I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street."


What did Abraham Herschburg say about his short trip to the yard?

DN: Abraham Heshburg, a young fellow, living at 28, Berner-street, said: Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter.

Down the stairs of the club.

What did Lamb say about his path along Berner street?

Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder." I said, "Where?" As they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down the street. Seeing people moving about some distance down Berner-street, I ran down that street followed by Constable 426 H.

What did Smith say?

S: I do not remember passing any one on my way down Berner street.

S: Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.
C: Did you go up Berner-street into Commercial-road?
S: No I turned up Fairclough-street.

C: Was she on the pavement?
S: Yes, a few yards up Berner-street on the opposite side to where she was found.

How did the coroner interpret 'a few yards up Berner-street', in his summing up?

At 12:30 p.m. the constable on the beat (William Smith) saw the deceased in Berner-street standing on the pavement a few yards from Commercial-street...

How did Fanny Mortimer describe the man with a black bag, when she saw him coming from Commercial Road?

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

How did Fanny describe the man who appeared to have come from the club?

I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.

The evidence is unambiguous. To go up Berner street means to go toward Commercial Road. To go down that street means to go toward Ellen street.



Given how many times someone has asserted the Goldstein was investigated and cleared, I'm not surprised you have a false memory.

Desperate, desperate stuff. People will say a ‘I walked down the street’ or ‘I walked up’ the street’ interchangeably. In fact I’d suggest that people would say ‘I walked down the street’ far more often.

Mortimer saw Goldstein once. It’s transparently obvious but again you resort to latching on to one word to try and make a point. As I said…desperate stuff.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree that we can’t make assumptions. We can’t assume without evidence that the Police checked Goldstein’s story. Just as we can’t assume that they didn’t. But do we have to assume that the Victorian Police were so incompetent that they dispensed with the most basic of checks on an issue so important? Goldstein was clearly a person of interest in a criminal investigation which made all other investigations at that time seem insignificant, so is it a stretch of the imagination to suggest the possibility or even the likelihood that they took the very simple expedient of strolling round to the coffee shop to check that he was telling the truth?

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

Speculation serves its purposes in that it can demonstrate how infinite the possibilities become when one ventures into the unknown. There are no constraints, and the story can become whatever we imagine. But "here there be monsters" applies, because it is very easy to think that the story one comes up is the one true path through the darkness. The less evidence we have, the greater the number of possible explanations, and as a result, the lower the probability for any given explanation.

- Jeff

That's exactly my point, Jeff. The possibilities to fill a gap are plenty, there's no way of knowing anything and, therefore, getting us any further is not going to happen. In that sense speculation serves no purpose and is useless. It's swimming underwater in the dark. Or just playing around.

Knowing, however, for a fact that witnesses, besides getting a confession, were about the only tool the police had to solve a crime, in my view, it serves even less of a purpose to now question whether the police would have checked out their statements on at least some basic level, certainly if things could be easily checked and when there is some evidence that they did check and none that they didn't.

So, questions like "what was the relationship between the Spectacle Alley coffee house, and the cigarette boxes?", "Why did Goldstein apparently need 'persuading', to go to the police?", "Do you suppose Goldstein attended the meeting?", “Did anyone see the contents of the bag, on the night?”, “Apparently Lave did see people in the yard. Who were those people?”, “What did the bag contain (if anything), when he was seen moments after leaving Dutfield's Yard? Had he left the boxes at home? If not, why go there?”, “At about the time of the murder? What time was that and according to who?”, “Was he going back to Spectacle Alley though, or was heading in the direction of Aldgate with other business to attend to?”, “Where was Stride at time X?” - however interesting it would be to know the answers – are quite useless.

Cheers,
Frank

[Scott Nelson]

Speculation serves its purposes in that it can demonstrate how infinite the possibilities become when one ventures into the unknown. There are no constraints, and the story can become whatever we imagine. But "here there be monsters" applies, because it is very easy to think that the story one comes up is the one true path through the darkness. The less evidence we have, the greater the number of possible explanations, and as a result, the lower the probability for any given explanation.

Sounds like something straight out of Friedrich Nietzsche, Jeff.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Sounds like something straight out of Friedrich Nietzsche, Jeff.

Wasn’t he a Centre Half for Bayern Munich Scott?

[Scott Nelson]

It was the "here there be monsters" part, Michael.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it
that in the process he does not become a monster.
And if you gaze long enough into an abyss,
the abyss will gaze back into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche

[JeffHamm]

Sounds like something straight out of Friedrich Nietzsche, Jeff.

Ha ha! I'm embarrassed to say I've never read Nietzsche. I like to justify that by arguing it indicates I don't need to.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

It was the "here there be monsters" part, Michael.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it
that in the process he does not become a monster.
And if you gaze long enough into an abyss,
the abyss will gaze back into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche

Actually, to come clean, my "here there be monsters" was just a play on the common (and apocryphal) notion that old maps would mark unexplored areas with "here there be monsters." They didn't, though they did draw monsters just to indicate uncharted areas.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Actually, to come clean, my "here there be monsters" was just a play on the common (and apocryphal) notion that old maps would mark unexplored areas with "here there be monsters." They didn't, though they did draw monsters just to indicate uncharted areas.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I think the actual notation on the old maps was "Beyond this place there be dragons". A supposition without the burden of proof.

Frank is right. We can delve, deliberate, contemplate, postulate, present irrefutable logic and have it receive unfounded denials, and speculate all we like, but it all comes to nothing. "Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it". Most of the records are also lost, so we are attempting a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. You have to wonder why we keep doing it???

Cheers, George

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Most of the records are also lost, so we are attempting a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. You have to wonder why we keep doing it???

Cheers, George

George, have you not received your Ripperology gravy train ticket yet? I'll have a word with the Lord's of Ripperology and see where it is.

Basically, once your in, you can join our elite clique and help keep that train rolling. Uphold the old established beliefs, refute all those who challenge them and above all, keep the mystery of Jack alive for our own nefarious and highly lucrative means. Sure, we allow a few left field thinkers to participate, but anyone who gets to close to "the truth" has to be stopped. Hear that whistle George? The Gravy Trains coming, we've saved you a seat.

All aboard!

(Incidentally, there seems to have been a slight processing issue at HQ, as no one has actually received any of the promised money and/or glory for donkeys years now. I'm sure it'll be sorted soon though.)

[Herlock Sholmes]

George, have you not received your Ripperology gravy train ticket yet? I'll have a word with the Lord's of Ripperology and see where it is.

Basically, once your in, you can join our elite clique and help keep that train rolling. Uphold the old established beliefs, refute all those who challenge them and above all, keep the mystery of Jack alive for our own nefarious and highly lucrative means. Sure, we allow a few left field thinkers to participate, but anyone who gets to close to "the truth" has to be stopped. Hear that whistle George? The Gravy Trains coming, we've saved you a seat.

All aboard!

(Incidentally, there seems to have been a slight processing issue at HQ, as no one has actually received any of the promised money and/or glory for donkeys years now. I'm sure it'll be sorted soon though.)