Whistling on Berner Street

[Herlock Sholmes]

With what’s going on here I’d have to ask if someone ancestor had been run over by Diemschutz cart at some point? It’s becoming a joke. Perhaps he was the ripper because someone has found that he used to pull girls hair in the playground?!

Is it a coincidence that as soon as Caz makes the point about why Lamb was insistent on letting people know that he had no watch, which combined with his own wording, shows beyond any doubt that Lamb was estimating and that it points to him not having just seen a clock we suddenly get a wave of posts trying to show what a liar Louis was? Why is this?

The evidence favours Louis over Lamb.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you're right Al, so I will leave my suspect list at three for now, although I think I can eliminate one of those three, as well.

You might joke but it illustrates your ‘clutching at straws’ method. It shows how you do indeed look for mystery in every single aspect of the case. Unfortunately for your imagination though this was a simple case of murder. No Freemasons, no shadowy figures sloping away in the dark and no Professor Moriarty’s. Once you eliminate all of that pointless guff and just view events as a simple murder with witnesses giving their statements (whilst factoring in the possibility of error) then we can see how we’ve all wasted (and continue to waste) months of our lives.

There was no cover-up.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Once you eliminate all of that pointless guff and just view events as a simple murder with witnesses giving their statements (whilst factoring in the possibility of error) then we can see how we’ve all wasted (and continue to waste) months of our lives.

There was no cover-up.

It is a terrible waste of time, to be sure, but someone has to fight The Forces of Irrationality and UnReason, and no one does it better than you, Michael.

[GBinOz]

Once you eliminate all of that pointless guff and just view events as a simple murder with witnesses giving their statements (whilst factoring in the possibility of error) then we can see how we’ve all wasted (and continue to waste) months of our lives.

Diemschitz, Sep 30:
She was a little bit better dressed I should say than the woman who was last murdered.
Interesting. How did Diemshitz know how Chapman was dressed?

I regard this as a legitimate question to which Al provided an appropriate answer. If you are unable to tolerate any deviation from traditional views, why do you feel compelled to participate in the discussions by just repeating the same arguments?

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Diemschitz, Sep 30:
She was a little bit better dressed I should say than the woman who was last murdered.
Interesting. How did Diemshitz know how Chapman was dressed?

I regard this as a legitimate question to which Al provided an appropriate answer. If you are unable to tolerate any deviation from traditional views, why do you feel compelled to participate in the discussions by just repeating the same arguments?

Cheers, George

It beats me how you’ve manage to see that post as aimed at anything that you’ve said George?

It was aimed directly at NBFN and the 4 ripper suspects that he’s ‘uncovered’ on Berner Street. Nothing to do with the point you quoted.

[GBinOz]

It beats me how you’ve manage to see that post as aimed at anything that you’ve said George?

It was aimed directly at NBFN and the 4 ripper suspects that he’s ‘uncovered’ on Berner Street. Nothing to do with the point you quoted.

Andrew was attempting some humour based based on my question (post 162), and this is obvious to anyone who is following this thread.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Andrew was attempting some humour based based on my question (post 162), and this is obvious to anyone who is following this thread.

And anyone following the threads will know that he’s suggested all of the above as suspects. Stop wriggling.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

And anyone following the threads will know that he’s suggested all of the above as suspects. Stop wriggling.

I was taking the mickey out of myself, you humorless sod

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was taking the mickey out of myself, you humorless sod

So you haven’t at some point suggested that Schwartz and Goldstein might have been the ripper?

With some of the suggestions on here it’s difficult to tell when some posters are being serious or not.

[drstrange169]

>>... found both the Prisoners Guilty of assaults on the police only<<

Correct, as I wrote, Israel Sunshine, Julius Barnett, and Emanuel Snapper and others appear to have lied.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I would issue a challence to anyone to find ONE interview with Diemshitz on 30 Sep 1888 where he mentioned a clock sighting. Just one. But the next day he has suddenly remembered looking at a clock (one account said the Baker's clock) and everyone wants to ignore police times and adopt this newly reviewed one time only you beaut exact and precise time of one o'clock rather than his multiple statements on the day before of his usual time of about one o'clock.

George,
here is something closer to a precise time, but no clock. The Star, Oct 1:

The first to find the body was Mr. Diemshitz, steward of the club. Interviewed by a Star reporter, Mr. Diemshitz said:- "I was coming home from market at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I am a traveller by trade, and go to different markets to sell my goods. Yesterday I went to Westow-hill. As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual. After I had passed through the gate which had been left open on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground. On looking down I saw the ground was not level, so I took the butt end of my whip and touched what appeared to me in the dark to be a heap of dirt lately placed there, a thing I was not accustomed to see. Not being able to move it, I struck a match and FOUND IT WAS A WOMAN.

First of all I thought it was my wife, but I found her inside the club enjoying herself with the others. I said to some of the members there is a woman lying in the yard, and I think she is drunk. Young Isaacs, a tailor machinist, went to the door and struck a match, and to our horror we saw blood trickling down the gutter almost from the gate to the club. The dance was immediately stopped. I and Isaacs ran out for a policeman, but could not find one after traversing several streets, but in the meantime another man from the Club, Eagle, ran to the Leman-street police-station and fetched two policemen, who arrived about seven minutes after the discovery.

It seems clear that both he and Kozebrodsky went to Grove street and back. He also claims that Eagle went for police at some point after he did, but before he returned. Eagle claimed at the inquest to have been with Isaac when he lit a match to better view the victim. Kozebrodsky cannot be out searching for police, and also be by Eagle's side in the yard. As Diemschitz states he went for police immediately on returning to the body with a candle and matches, the only way Kozebrodsky could have been with Eagle for a independent viewing by matchlight, is for this to have occurred prior to Diemschitz doing the same.

One other thing; was Diemschitz implying his wife was an alcoholic?

[GBinOz]

George,
here is something closer to a precise time, but no clock. The Star, Oct 1:

The first to find the body was Mr. Diemshitz, steward of the club. Interviewed by a Star reporter, Mr. Diemshitz said:- "I was coming home from market at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I am a traveller by trade, and go to different markets to sell my goods. Yesterday I went to Westow-hill. As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual. After I had passed through the gate which had been left open on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground. On looking down I saw the ground was not level, so I took the butt end of my whip and touched what appeared to me in the dark to be a heap of dirt lately placed there, a thing I was not accustomed to see. Not being able to move it, I struck a match and FOUND IT WAS A WOMAN.

First of all I thought it was my wife, but I found her inside the club enjoying herself with the others. I said to some of the members there is a woman lying in the yard, and I think she is drunk. Young Isaacs, a tailor machinist, went to the door and struck a match, and to our horror we saw blood trickling down the gutter almost from the gate to the club. The dance was immediately stopped. I and Isaacs ran out for a policeman, but could not find one after traversing several streets, but in the meantime another man from the Club, Eagle, ran to the Leman-street police-station and fetched two policemen, who arrived about seven minutes after the discovery.

It seems clear that both he and Kozebrodsky went to Grove street and back. He also claims that Eagle went for police at some point after he did, but before he returned. Eagle claimed at the inquest to have been with Isaac when he lit a match to better view the victim. Kozebrodsky cannot be out searching for police, and also be by Eagle's side in the yard. As Diemschitz states he went for police immediately on returning to the body with a candle and matches, the only way Kozebrodsky could have been with Eagle for a independent viewing by matchlight, is for this to have occurred prior to Diemschitz doing the same.

One other thing; was Diemschitz implying his wife was an alcoholic?

Hi Andrew,

"As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual." He gives the impression that he was ahead of his usual arrival time of 1:00.

"on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground."
From the inquest:
A Juror: Could you in going up the yard have passed the body without touching it? - Oh, yes.
[Coroner] Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it? - I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.
Another example of Diemshitz changing his story.

He said he alerted members on the ground floor and went with Koze with a match or a candle. It was after this point that they realised that there had been a murder, and Eagle would have still been upstairs. So Louis must have left before Koze.

It has been suggested before that Louis may have discovered his wife passed out drunk on previous occasions.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

"As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual." He gives the impression that he was ahead of his usual arrival time of 1:00.

Hi George.
That gave me something of a moment. As you know, there is a anomaly with Fanny Mortimer. She appears from the unquoted report, to be about 10 minutes ahead of time - she hears the plod between 12:40 and 12:45, rather than between 12:30 and 12:35. Yet in the quoted report, she does not say what we might expect - that she went out just after 1:10, but seemingly manages to 'resync' with Smith Time:

It was just after one o'clock when I went out...

How can that be? Well perhaps it has something to do with expectations.

DN: Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

EN: Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Perhaps she thought she went out just after 1am, because that is when Diemschitz normally got home. In other words, 1am may have had nothing to do with a clock - observed occasionally or often - but was simply a time she associated with Louis' normal arrival.

That explanation obviously leaves unanswered how she did know that Diemschitz normally got back close to one, without referencing a clock that she could have looked at on murder night. However, if we ignore the 4 minute gap - which I think is a calculation and not an estimate - we could probably get some idea of the gap between her locking up and going to the yard, by looking at the interview report.

I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police.

She thinks (in this hypothesis) that it is just after 1am, but it's actually between 12:50 and 12:55. So at what time did Diemschitz arrive?

"on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground."
From the inquest:
A Juror: Could you in going up the yard have passed the body without touching it? - Oh, yes.
[Coroner] Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it? - I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.
Another example of Diemshitz changing his story.

Obviously it is, and how should we view a witness who changes his story?

He said he alerted members on the ground floor and went with Koze with a match or a candle. It was after this point that they realised that there had been a murder, and Eagle would have still been upstairs. So Louis must have left before Koze.

I don't think that is going to work.

Spooner: I was standing outside the Beehive Tavern, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street along with a young woman. I had been standing there about five-and-twenty minutes when two Jews came running along hallooing out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter.

Evidently they ran together.

It has been suggested before that Louis may have discovered his wife passed out drunk on previous occasions.

I seem to have missed those.

[GBinOz]

Hi George.
That gave me something of a moment. As you know, there is a anomaly with Fanny Mortimer. She appears from the unquoted report, to be about 10 minutes ahead of time - she hears the plod between 12:40 and 12:45, rather than between 12:30 and 12:35. Yet in the quoted report, she does not say what we might expect - that she went out just after 1:10, but seemingly manages to 'resync' with Smith Time:

It was just after one o'clock when I went out...

How can that be? Well perhaps it has something to do with expectations.

DN: Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

EN: Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Perhaps she thought she went out just after 1am, because that is when Diemschitz normally got home. In other words, 1am may have had nothing to do with a clock - observed occasionally or often - but was simply a time she associated with Louis' normal arrival.

That explanation obviously leaves unanswered how she did know that Diemschitz normally got back close to one, without referencing a clock that she could have looked at on murder night. However, if we ignore the 4 minute gap - which I think is a calculation and not an estimate - we could probably get some idea of the gap between her locking up and going to the yard, by looking at the interview report.

I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police.

She thinks (in this hypothesis) that it is just after 1am, but it's actually between 12:50 and 12:55. So at what time did Diemschitz arrive?

Obviously it is, and how should we view a witness who changes his story?

I don't think that is going to work.

Spooner: I was standing outside the Beehive Tavern, at the corner of Christian-street and Fairclough-street along with a young woman. I had been standing there about five-and-twenty minutes when two Jews came running along hallooing out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter.

Evidently they ran together.

I seem to have missed those.

Hi Andrew,

It was just after one o'clock when I went out
Applying the ten minutes brings us back to the 12:52 mark.

The explanation for Spooner's "two jews" is that they were Diemshitz and Jacobs, and that Koze was behind them and had turned north on Batty on the way out. So maybe Diemshitz and Jacobs left, Koze was still by the body when Eagle came down the stairs, and then they left but in different directions coming back together in at the Commercial/Batty intersection.

The comments about Mrs D were on this or other forums.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

It was just after one o'clock when I went out
Applying the ten minutes brings us back to the 12:52 mark.

It does, but then what are we to make of Marshall, Brown, and club people, who all supposed the commotion began at close to 1am? If they were correct, then we would expect Mortimer to not agree with them - she was seemingly 10 minutes ahead of time. Yet she does agree with them, so in effect you're saying that Mortimer's clock was ahead of time by almost the same amount as these other witnesses were out, either subjectively or in reference to their own timepieces.

Marshall: I went in about 12 o'clock and heard nothing more until I heard "Murder" being called in the street. It had then just gone 1 o'clock.

Alternatively, the 10 minute report is wrong, or Mortimer badly underestimated the time she spent at her door, or she told the statement taking person, something different to what she told the press, not unlike Packer.

The explanation for Spooner's "two jews" is that they were Diemshitz and Jacobs, and that Koze was behind them and had turned north on Batty on the way out. So maybe Diemshitz and Jacobs left, Koze was still by the body when Eagle came down the stairs, and then they left but in different directions coming back together in at the Commercial/Batty intersection.

That is not what the press reports indicate. The total ambiguity of who went for police, where and when, suggests to me that some other issue is being 'worked around' - something happened after the discovery, that they don't want us to know about. That something doesn't need to be sinister, but I think there is a reason we never get the full story.