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  • Originally posted by caz View Post

    Your 'multiple' witnesses were estimating the time and not considered reliable, or the police would have taken a lot more interest in Louis and his clock.

    Lamb's contention, as reported in The Times, was that he was in Commercial Rd "about 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell". Was he misquoted in one of the reports, or did he give two estimates of the time? Either way, it's not a fact that it was before 1am when he heard the news of "another murder".
    Hi Caz,

    I'm not quite following you here. The clocks of the time could easily be out of sync, one ten minutes fast and the other ten minutes slow with respect to GMT. These accuracy standards were considered normal. Obviously the police would have been aware of this fact.

    Lamb's "contention" was a deposal at the inquest. He made only one statement. Any reported differences in that statement were entirely due to the newspaper journalist's judgement of how accurately said statement needed to be reported. However, Lamb reported as stating "shortly before one" is supported by the fact that the fixed point officer was still on duty.

    With the benefit of hindsight we now know that Diemshitz became a convicted criminal, so the truthfullness of his recollections on clocks can be questioned. As for the conspiracy theories being pursued here, they are pretty mild compared to the judgement of Diemshitz in Randy Williams book "Sherlock Holmes and the Autumn of Terror".

    Cheers, and with respect as always, George
    Last edited by GBinOz; 11-26-2021, 03:01 AM.
    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

    Comment


    • . However, Lamb reported as stating "shortly before one" is supported by the fact that the fixed point officer was still on duty.
      Im sorry George but you keep repeating this despite being regularly told by me how these things worked (which I got from Neil Bell who is an acknowledged expert on the subject of the Police)

      It was the Sergeant’s duty to walk around informing Fixed Point Officer’s that their period of duty was at an end. Therefore it would have been a physical impossibility for him to have told all of his Fixed Point Officer’s at 1.00. Therefore the fact that the Fixed Point Officer was still in place cannot mean that it must have been before 1.00. It could very easily have been 1.05 with him still waiting for the Sergeant to arrive to relieve him of his duty.
      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes



      “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

      “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

      Comment


      • . With the benefit of hindsight we now know that Diemshitz became a convicted criminal, so the truthfullness of his recollections on clocks can be questioned
        Really George? Do we need to go to these depths to try and dismiss Diemschutz. This was a man simply returning from the market. We have to invents reasons for him to have lied? The police clearly believed him. No one at the time appears to have questioned any of the given timings so one of four points:

        1) that the police were so mind-bogglingly stupid that they didn’t notice these timing discrepancies?

        2) that they noticed these timing discrepancies but couldn’t be bothered looking into them.

        3) that they noticed these timing discrepancies but thought them unimportant.

        4) that they looked into the timing discrepancies and decided that Diemschutz was the likelier to have been correct.

        I know which I think to have been the likeliest.
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes



        “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

        “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

          With the benefit of hindsight we now know that Diemshitz became a convicted criminal, so the truthfullness of his recollections on clocks can be questioned. As
          Crikey,he protected himself with a broom.

          Comment


          • Regards

            Sir Herlock Sholmes



            “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

            “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DJA View Post

              Crikey,he protected himself with a broom.
              A DISTURBANCE AT THE CLUB

              After the meeting was over, a crowd gathered round the International Club, and some disturbance took place in consequence of one of the Defendants, who came out of the Club in his shirt sleeves, and struck a boy. Hooting ensued, and then the two Defendants with Friedman struck out right and left amongst the crowd.

              Frost remonstrated, and then he was kicked and violently assaulted by them. Friedman caught hold of him, and, with the aid of the other Defendants, dragged him into the passage of the Club, where he was again struck over the head with a stick, and hit by Kozebrodski two or three times.

              The Defendants were arrested and charged with riotous conduct.

              POLICE EVIDENCE
              Evidence in support of the charge was given by Inspector Ferrett, Serjeant Wright, Police Constables Frost, Harris, Sherrington, and others.

              Israel Sunshine, Julius Barnett, and Emanuel Snapper and others, also spoke to being in the crowd, and being assaulted by the Defendants without any provocation.
              “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                Really George? Do we need to go to these depths to try and dismiss Diemschutz. This was a man simply returning from the market. We have to invents reasons for him to have lied? The police clearly believed him. No one at the time appears to have questioned any of the given timings so one of four points:

                1) that the police were so mind-bogglingly stupid that they didn’t notice these timing discrepancies?

                2) that they noticed these timing discrepancies but couldn’t be bothered looking into them.

                3) that they noticed these timing discrepancies but thought them unimportant.

                4) that they looked into the timing discrepancies and decided that Diemschutz was the likelier to have been correct.

                I know which I think to have been the likeliest.
                None of the above. The police were aware of the inaccuracy of clocks and their lack of synchronisation.

                I didn't invent his trial and the jury decided on his truthfullness.
                “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                  Im sorry George but you keep repeating this despite being regularly told by me how these things worked (which I got from Neil Bell who is an acknowledged expert on the subject of the Police)

                  It was the Sergeant’s duty to walk around informing Fixed Point Officer’s that their period of duty was at an end. Therefore it would have been a physical impossibility for him to have told all of his Fixed Point Officer’s at 1.00. Therefore the fact that the Fixed Point Officer was still in place cannot mean that it must have been before 1.00. It could very easily have been 1.05 with him still waiting for the Sergeant to arrive to relieve him of his duty.
                  Also, Herlock, it occurs to me from the context that it could well have been seeing that the fixed point officer had not yet been relieved that made Lamb assume it was not quite 1am.

                  George more or less supports this by writing:

                  The clocks of the time could easily be out of sync, one ten minutes fast and the other ten minutes slow with respect to GMT. These accuracy standards were considered normal. Obviously the police would have been aware of this fact.
                  Assuming Lamb was aware of this fact, he'd have been better off relying on the presence of the fixed point officer to tell him it was around, or shortly before 1am, than looking at a clock that could be out by up to ten minutes either way.

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by caz View Post

                    Also, Herlock, it occurs to me from the context that it could well have been seeing that the fixed point officer had not yet been relieved that made Lamb assume it was not quite 1am.

                    George more or less supports this by writing:



                    Assuming Lamb was aware of this fact, he'd have been better off relying on the presence of the fixed point officer to tell him it was around, or shortly before 1am, than looking at a clock that could be out by up to ten minutes either way.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    That’s a good point Caz, Lamb himself might have been making an assumption. Could it have been that the sergeant, for whatever reason, might have been a little later than usual in getting to that particular FP Officer.
                    Regards

                    Sir Herlock Sholmes



                    “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                    “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                      None of the above. The police were aware of the inaccuracy of clocks and their lack of synchronisation.

                      I didn't invent his trial and the jury decided on his truthfullness.
                      Yes, no one disputed Diemschutz time.
                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes



                      “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                      “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                        None of the above. The police were aware of the inaccuracy of clocks and their lack of synchronisation.
                        But that awareness would not tell them what the correct time was, so I'm not sure how that helps to show Louis D lied about the time showing one o'clock as he passed it.

                        Louis would have had to know the correct time when he did arrive, in order to make up a later time of discovery of just after 1am. He'd have known, as did the police, how inaccurate clocks could be. This wasn't just a matter of calculating a time interval and pushing the discovery forward five, ten or fifteen minutes - or 'polishing it up' as you put it, because he wouldn't have known what time he was polishing it up from.

                        I think you have just made it clearer than ever that the estimates given by all the witnesses concerned would not even have been helped by the last time they thought to look at a clock!

                        Love,

                        Caz
                        X
                        "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          That’s a good point Caz, Lamb himself might have been making an assumption. Could it have been that the sergeant, for whatever reason, might have been a little later than usual in getting to that particular FP Officer.
                          The nightly 1am relief of fixed point officers might well have been a more useful way to fix the approximate time than relying on a habitually inaccurate public clock!

                          Love,

                          Caz
                          X
                          "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                            A DISTURBANCE AT THE CLUB

                            After the meeting was over, a crowd gathered round the International Club, and some disturbance took place in consequence of one of the Defendants, who came out of the Club in his shirt sleeves, and struck a boy. Hooting ensued, and then the two Defendants with Friedman struck out right and left amongst the crowd.

                            Frost remonstrated, and then he was kicked and violently assaulted by them. Friedman caught hold of him, and, with the aid of the other Defendants, dragged him into the passage of the Club, where he was again struck over the head with a broomstick, and hit by Kozebrodski two or three times.

                            The Defendants were arrested and charged with riotous conduct.

                            POLICE EVIDENCE
                            Evidence in support of the charge was given by Inspector Ferrett, Serjeant Wright, Police Constables Frost, Harris, Sherrington, and others.

                            Israel Sunshine, Julius Barnett, and Emanuel Snapper and others, also spoke to being in the crowd, and being assaulted by the Defendants without any provocation.
                            FIFY

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                              FIFY
                              Nice try Dave. The broomstick reference was put forward by the defence saying that the only violence against the police and others was by Mrs D wielding a hairbroom. The jury were not impressed.

                              Cheers, George
                              “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                              Comment


                              • > >Israel Sunshine, Julius Barnett, and Emanuel Snapper and others, also spoke to being in the crowd, and being assaulted by the Defendants without any provocation.<<

                                Coming late to this, so apologises if it's already been covered, but these particular claims were dismissed, which gives us some idea of the honesty of the crowd attacking.
                                dustymiller
                                aka drstrange

                                Comment

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