A Whip and a Prod

[DJA]

Wore is past tense of wear.

[Robert St Devil]

If Stride had lost 2 quarts of blood ,including any clot,she would have still been alive and her heart pumping > 140 bpm with BP < 70.

Irrelevant as she had been asphyxiated.Phillips' autopsy proved that.

Strongly suspect Jack had been waiting for BS Man to vacate the scene.Even if the baker's clock was 5 minutes fast ,Jack had enough time to do his work and depart.

I agree on the matter of asphyxiation, Dave – lack of arterial spray, lack of any blood-splashings beyond the rut other than some trodden markings, lack of blood-markings on her clothes, lack of blood-markings on the left side of her body [the side that she was lying-on], condition of the heart based on the autopsy. The People of Sunday 7 October 1888 offers more of her post mortem analysis than those available on Casebook [pic included]. I found an abstract for an article “The Analysis of Pericardial Fluid In Forensic Practice” [Mao, Zheng, Zhu, Zhu] because this particular post-mortem has Dr. Phillips stating that “there was no fluid in the pericardium” and I was curious if this factor was another aspect of death by asphyxiation; unfortunately, a person needs to be “a somebody” to access this paper and I am currently below such status.

Still, if we have an asphyxiated Elizabeth Stride’s body lying on a sloped pavement, by all accounts it would be the natural force of gravity that was causing this stream of blood which is flowing from her neck [since it is not the act of a contracting heart that is pushing the blood out of her body].

According to the Morning Advertiser 2 Oct 1888, Mrs. Deimshitz[sic] made the following statement:

"Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard. I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard. When my husband examined the body he found that life, so far as he could tell, was quite extinct..."

{Hopefully, you can remind me of the distance from gate to the club’s side door. I am uncertainly thinking that it was 18 feet.}

From a forensic standpoint, would there have been sufficient time for enough quantity of blood to (a) have drained out of the partially-cut carotid of a lifeless body being acted on by the force of gravity as it lay on an incline, (b) streamed the X feet within the rut|gutter to the doorway and (c) pooled up outside of the club-door - within the timeframe of Louis Diemschutz turning his barrow into Dutfield Yard until Mrs. Diemschutz steps into the doorway and notices the pool of blood? [In this case, X represents the remaining distance in feet from her neck to the doorway]

This, after all, would have to be possible if The Interruption theory is to have any merit. For now, it would seem as though 2-quarts of blood would be a lot to move that distance & within that timeframe (to me, at least)

All emphasis my own,

Section of the post-mortem report:

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Here are some more anomalies...

[Coroner] Was the whole of the body resting on the side?
[Diemschutz] No, I should say only her face. I cannot say how much of the body was sideways.
[Diemschutz] I did not notice what position her hands were in, but when the police came I observed that her bodice was unbuttoned near the neck.
[Diemschutz] The doctor said the body was quite warm.

Lamb, Blackwell, Phillips and others, all observed the body lying completely turned to the left, and facing the wall. Why didn't Louis?

Louis Diemschutz in the Daily News, Oct 1 (same day as he appeared at the inquest):

When I first saw the woman she was lying on her left side.
Her left hand was on the ground, and the right was crossed over the breast.
Her head was down the yard, and her feet towards the entrance, not more than about a yard or so inside the gates.

Now she is on her left side.
Now he can very well see the position of the hands.

The feet are 2 to 3ft inside the gates, which is interesting given that the gates are each 4'2" wide, in a 10ft wide lane.
So was the lower half of the body overlapping the gates, either on the outer side, or between gate and wall?
Alternatively, were they 2 or 3 feet from the gate, as Eagle had similarly suggested?

So what did PC Lamb have to say about the location of the feet?...

[Lamb] When I got there I had the gates shut.
[Coroner] But did not the feet of the deceased touch the gate?
[Lamb] No; they went just behind it, and I was able to close the gates without disturbing the body.

Has someone moved the body?
Did someone remove the bonnet?
Was that someone caught in the act?
Did that someone run away ... as far as the railway arch?
Did that someone eat the grapes, when they got there?

[c.d.]

Firstly, we need a thorough and robust model of how the murder was executed.
I think speculating on the cause of the murderer fleeing the scene, is starting midstream, so to speak.

Well N.B.F.N.,

When you get around to addressing that question (sometime around the year 2050 I'm guessing ) I will be quite interested in reading your take on it.

c.d.

[DJA]

Hi Robert.

Stride's feet were 10 feet from the gateway.

Her doubled over body ~ 4 feet.

Another 4 feet to the door.

18 feet.

If BS Man departed ~ 12.45am and the cart arrived at 1am,then the blood must have had time.

Stride's bottom lip and the (death grip between finger and thumb of the) cachous indicates Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia.
She was a bleeder!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Wore is past tense of wear.

She had dark clothes on, and wore a black crape bonnet.

He is talking about what she had on, and what she wore, when observed.

The 'and' ties the two details into a single observation.

[DJA]

Argument - Monty Python - YouTube


She had dark clothes and a bonnet on.

She wore dark clothes and a bonnet.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Stride had lost 2 quarts of blood ,including any clot,she would have still been alive and her heart pumping > 140 bpm with BP < 70.

Makes you wonder why no one thought to tend to the body.
Did anyone check for a pulse or make an effort to stop the bleeding?
No - they all ran off in different directions, crying for help. Weird.

Irrelevant as she had been asphyxiated.Phillips' autopsy proved that.

So why did Jack have her laying on her left side, and cut mostly the same side of her throat, with her face 6" from the wall?
Why make it so awkward for himself, when he could have used the lack of blood pressure to his advantage?

Strongly suspect Jack had been waiting for BS Man to vacate the scene.

So you must also have a strong opinion on where Jack had been waiting, and at least some opinion on how this BS Man managed to yell 'Lipski', right outside a predominantly Jewish inhabited club, without anyone hearing him through the multiple open windows and door?

Even if the baker's clock was 5 minutes fast ,Jack had enough time to do his work and depart.

Making the real time, 12:55. Fanny Mortimer???

[DJA]

Checking on the wife and securing lighting makes sense to me.
Getting help also makes sense,as she had lost a lot of blood.
The killer might still be nearby.
We don't know if anyone checked her pulse at that time. Wouldn't matter as she was dead.

The throat cut was like a second bullet,just making sure.

Nope.

Not really.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Diemschutz: Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other.

So what was the position of the hands, Louis?

[DJA]

Considered using that as your avatar?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I agree on the matter of asphyxiation, Dave – lack of arterial spray, lack of any blood-splashings beyond the rut other than some trodden markings, lack of blood-markings on her clothes, lack of blood-markings on the left side of her body [the side that she was lying-on], condition of the heart based on the autopsy.

The lack of blood spray is explained by others as the result of cutting the throat mostly on the side she lay, so that blood goes directly to ground.
If you agree with Dave on the matter of asphyxiation, you probably need to explain why the Ripper would cut the throat with the body in such an awkward cutting position. Why not just cut the right side of throat?

Still, if we have an asphyxiated Elizabeth Stride’s body lying on a sloped pavement, by all accounts it would be the natural force of gravity that was causing this stream of blood which is flowing from her neck [since it is not the act of a contracting heart that is pushing the blood out of her body].

The slope of the passageway might have been a few degrees.
I can't see it making much difference to the rate of blood loss.

According to the Morning Advertiser 2 Oct 1888, Mrs. Deimshitz[sic] made the following statement:

"Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard. I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard. When my husband examined the body he found that life, so far as he could tell, was quite extinct..."

So Mrs Diemschutz (Sarah) was "in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs".

Louis Diemschutz at inquest: I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.

Apparently, finding her in the kitchen would not have given Jack long enough to escape without being noticed.

Sarah: I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

I wonder how many of them ran into the pony, or tripped over the cart?
That is not a joke...

Blackwell: ... it was very dark, and what I saw was by the aid of a policeman's lantern.

{Hopefully, you can remind me of the distance from gate to the club’s side door. I am uncertainly thinking that it was 18 feet.}

William Wess: The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft.

From a forensic standpoint, would there have been sufficient time for enough quantity of blood to (a) have drained out of the partially-cut carotid of a lifeless body being acted on by the force of gravity as it lay on an incline, (b) streamed the X feet within the rut|gutter to the doorway and (c) pooled up outside of the club-door - within the timeframe of Louis Diemschutz turning his barrow into Dutfield Yard until Mrs. Diemschutz steps into the doorway and notices the pool of blood? [In this case, X represents the remaining distance in feet from her neck to the doorway]

This, after all, would have to be possible if The Interruption theory is to have any merit. For now, it would seem as though 2-quarts of blood would be a lot to move that distance & within that timeframe (to me, at least)

On the other hand, if he had up to 15 minutes alone with her, until being disrupted by the pony and cart, why not give her the full Eddowes treatment?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Stride's feet were 10 feet from the gateway.

Her doubled over body ~ 4 feet.

Another 4 feet to the door.

18 feet.

Considering the cart was 7' long, and the pony about 6', with a bit of a gap in between, where do you suppose Louis parked?

If BS Man departed ~ 12.45am and the cart arrived at 1am,then the blood must have had time.

Just like Jack the Ripper had time to live up to his name.

We don't know if anyone checked her pulse at that time. Wouldn't matter as she was dead.

We know this in hindsight.

[Robert St Devil]

You do understand the particulars of Dutfield Yard, yes, NB4N? There was a passageway off Berners Street, where Elizabeth Stride was found, very dark in the passage, needed a light or a lantern to see in the passage, so dark there, couldn't make out anything or anyone laying on the ground. The passage led into the yard, the yard was more illuminated by the lights from the first story window of the club and from the cottage and from the partially opened door. You are understanding that it wasn't pitch black throughout the entirety of the yard, yes, NB4N?

[Robert St Devil]

The kitchen was behind the ground-floor front room. What's your point, NB4N? Wait, you don't think the side-door opened into the kitchen, do you??