A Whip and a Prod

[Michael W Richards]

Stride's neck was cut below the scarf.

"

There was a clear-cut incision on the neck. It was six inches in length and commenced two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, one half inch in over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper, dividing the sheath. The cut was very clean and deviated a little downwards"

"

Deceased had a silk handkerchief round her neck, and it appeared to be slightly torn. I have since ascertained it was cut. This corresponded with the right angle of the jaw

neck, from left to right, there is a clean cut incision six inches in length; incision commencing two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw."
"
" The wound was inflicted by drawing the knife across the throat."

I think its best to follow some of your posts with just the actual facts. So nothing is misrepresented.

[Michael W Richards]

Let me rephrase the question properly ...

Why would pulling on a scarf/neckerchief, either to drag someone backwards or to lift their head once on the ground, result in the bow remaining very tight against the neck, once released?

When Blackwell is examining her, the scarf is still tight.

Because it was also twisted. Like when tightening is done on something that is tied at both ends.

[Joshua Rogan]

I think its best to follow some of your posts with just the actual facts. So nothing is misrepresented.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

What about this fact from Dr Blackwell?

"There was a long incision in the neck which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf which was above the wound. The lower edge of the scarf was slightly frayed as if by a sharp knife."

[Michael W Richards]

What about this fact from Dr Blackwell?

"There was a long incision in the neck which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf which was above the wound. The lower edge of the scarf was slightly frayed as if by a sharp knife."

My impression by his post Josh was that he was contending the scarfs' cut didn't match the cut on the throat, and it didn't cut the cloth. Perhaps I was in error...kinda hard to tell sometimes what is intended as slights and what is being helpful. The latter is much rarer than the first.

[Michael W Richards]

On the scarf, it was most certainly used by her killer to get control of Liz. Don't believe that is in evidence in any other killing of women wearing scarves during this period in time. Annies wasnt twisted or tightened, Kates wasn't. I believe it appears in this case because he grabbed it from behind to stop her from walking away. Do any other Ripper victims appear as if they had a chance to walk away?

[DJA]

Only Blackwell suggests that the scarf, actually a silk handkerchief ,was "probably" used to pull Stride backwards.

Phillips actually notes there was no sign of gagging.

Nobody mentions the hanky being twisted.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We have a blood volume of ~ 5 liters/5 quarts.
About 2 quarts of Strides flowed towards the door.That might or might not include a pound/half quart of clot.
That is a lot of blood.
Doubt there was more elsewhere.

What do you make of this?...

[Coroner] Did you examine the blood at Berner-street carefully, as to its direction and so forth?
[Phillips] Yes. The blood near to the neck and a few inches to the left side was well clotted, and it had run down the waterway to within a few inches of the side entrance to the club-house.
[Coroner] Were there any spots of blood anywhere else?
[Phillips] I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck. Roughly estimating it, I should say there was an unusual flow of blood, considering the stature and the nourishment of the body.

Transplanted, from the original flow from the neck?
An unusual flow of blow, considering the state of the body?

Stride's neck was cut below the scarf.

Yes. The scarf was right up under the chin.
Neither pulling back on the scarf from behind, nor pulling it upwards once the victim is in a horizontal position (on the ground), achieves this.
It requires someone to deliberately tie the scarf very tightly and high on the neck, which uses up two of Jake's three hands.

[DJA]

Crikey.

Bottom lip,cachous ...... she is a bleeder. Genetic condition.

Like Eddowes' eyes ..... different disease named Xanthelasma.

Too many people consider research to be reading others garbage and adding their own.

[Michael W Richards]

"I should say that as the woman had held sweets in her left hand that her head was dragged back by means of a silk handkerchief she wore round her neck, and her throat was then cut."

Dr Blackwell, Daily News, Oct 1st

Im looking for the reference that the scarf was twisted, although Im not certain it will be distinguishable from the twisted position of the bow. Note that Blackwell suggests she was pulled "back" by the scarf, again in a manner like I suggested earlier.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Me: Why would pulling on a scarf/neckerchief, either to drag someone backwards or to lift their head once on the ground, result in the bow remaining very tight against the neck, once released?

Because it was also twisted. Like when tightening is done on something that is tied at both ends.

MWR: Im looking for the reference that the scarf was twisted, although Im not certain it will be distinguishable from the twisted position of the bow.

[Michael W Richards]

The twist I suggest and a bow twisted to the side are not mutually exclusive, so....

[DJA]

A record of either twist would be helpful.

[DJA]

The Twist - Chubby Checker - YouTube

[Michael W Richards]

"There was checked silk scarf round the neck, the bow of which was thrown to the left side and pulled very tight. There was a long incision in the neck which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf. The scarf was above the wound. The lower edge of the scarf was slightly frayed, as if by a sharp knife."

Blackwell

"There was a check silk scarf around the neck, the bow of which was turned to the left side and pulled very tight"

Blackwell

"...her feet being about a couple of yards from the street and her head in a gutter which runs down the right hand side of the court close to the wall."

Spooner

"About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial road, between Christian street and Batty street. Two men came running to me shouting. I went towards them. They said, "Come on, there has been another murder." I asked "Where?" As they got to the corner of Berner street, they pointed down the street. Seeing people moving about some distance down Berner street I ran, followed by another constable, 436H. I went into the gateway of No. 40 Berner street, and I saw something dark lying on the right hand side, close to the gate. I turned my lamp on and found it was a woman. I observed that her throat was cut, and she appeared to be dead. I at once sent another constable for the nearest doctor. When I looked round the yard after I arrived, there were about thirty people there."

PC Lamb

".....between half past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive public house at the corner of Christian street and Fairclough street, along with a young woman. We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settle street, Commercial road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian street for w few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about five and twenty minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along. They hallaoed out "Murder!" "Police!" They ran as far as Grove street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They said, "There has been a woman murdered in Berner street." I went with them to the yard adjoining No. 40. I saw a young woman lying just inside the gate. There were about fifteen people in the yard standing round, most of them Jews."

Pc Lamb

The twisting comment is likely a reference to the bow being pulled back and tightly held, and I thought Id save you some time continuing to dispute statements that can be attributed and verified...yes, there was a gutter, yes, it appears by my previous post that Blackwell thought she had been dragged backwards by the scarf, yes it was cut and nicked corresponding to the wound on her throat, and yes a number of people ranging from 15 according to Spooner, at 12:45, to as many as 30 that PC Lamb saw there, just after 1, preceded all people summoned to that spot. So that seems to indicate that the smaller number of 15 at 12:45 grew to a larger number of 30 just after 1. Seems eminently believable. 3 other witnesses corroborate Spooners time and that a group was already by the woman when he first arrived.

[Michael W Richards]

In PC Lambs account its worth noting that he first sees men running for help...at around 1. Thought that's when Louis "precisely" pulled in....so how did 30 men suddenly appear by the body between 1 and 1:02 when Lamb is there? How does he arrive at "precisely 1" when Fanny doesn't see or hear him, and when Lamb is already seeing people running for help.

And of course, much more importantly, why do 4 witnesses say they were part of the group around the body with Louis, 15 minutes before Louis said he arrives?

Its always fascinating to see arguments against those corroborated statements by using singular accounts without any corroboration at all. Like the preponderance of evidence doesn't matter.