A Whip and a Prod

[DJA]

As this thread is really about nothing ......

Rusty The Flatulent Horse - Kramer - Seinfeld S07E11 - YouTube

Seinfeld: No Soup For You (Clip) | TBS - YouTube

[DJA]

From Der Arbiter Freint

His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this.

Now we know why he really needed a Whip

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Seinfeld feels so dated now, those slap bass fills....

[DJA]

Lou Costello - I fear Nothing Jack and the Beanstalk 1952 - YouTube

[DustyBones]

The testimony of Louis Diemschutz was reenacted for a scene in the Barlow and Watt series. It shows undeniably how Diemschutz was perfectly capable of doing what he stated he had done.

The time stamp is at 1:21:20

[Michael W Richards]

How do you account for Israel Schwartz apparently vanishing from history, after his interpreted interview by Abberline?
Was he given a new identity, and relocated away from Whitechapel?
If his evidence was so sensitive and/or dangerous to his own safety, surely we are obliged to take it on board (without forgetting the fallibility of eyewitness testimony)?

If the club is involved in the murder, why would they work out what they are going to say to the police, after the murder occurs?
Surely they are intelligent people who can plan all this out in advance?
If, on the other hand, the club is innocent, the right way to proceed is to just go for help immediately, as they say they did.
Is the more likely scenario that, acting without distractions and with visual access to a clock, both Diemschutz and Mrs Mortimer get the time more or less correct, but in the organisational chaos of the club, Kozebrodsky and others screw up the agreed upon time?

I think it was determined that Israels story could not be validated, and that perhaps his relationship with Wess influenced the fact it came out at all. Its clears to see though that he does not have any voice at all in the Inquest, not even as a withheld or protected witness...like Lawende for example. We know they did with him, they said so.

There are so many fictions floating around lets get a reality baseline here..

12:30-Issac K arrives back at the club
12:35- Liz is seen by PC Smith, Wess is leaving the club, Lave is by the gates. Fanny is off and on at her door, until 12:50. Only a young couple is noted.
12:40- Eagle returns to the club and "couldn't be sure" that a body was there. Lave is still by the gates. They don't see anyone or each other.
12:40-Issac K says he was called down by Louis to the passageway, Gillen and Heschberg corroborate this by the times they give
12:40-12:45- Spooner says that he saw 2 Jews running and calling for help, and he follows them to the gates and sees the body. Issac K is sent for help.
12:45-Brown sees a couple on the corner, the woman does not have a flower arrangement.
12:45-Israel Schwartz says he saw Liz and 2 other men outside the gates on the street, and he gets anti-Semitically threatened.
12:50- Fanny returns to her door for a 10 minute vigil. She sees no-one.
12:55-Fanny sees Goldtein, he comes in Tuesday night to corroborate this.
1:00am-Fanny goes indoors
After 1-Louis says he arrives
1:05-Louis and other members go for help.

If you take out the statements of the least believable witnesses, the ones without any corroboration at all, then you have Liz not seen on the street after 12:35.

These are what the various statements create, this is the timeline. So, who if anyone was wrong because they had no access to clocks, who has any stake in what outcome an investigation into this murder might establish, where and who are the validated, corroborated accounts...what accounts figure into the presentation of the facts at the Inquest...

There are a number of filters one can apply to this information to find a most probable answer to the questions, the simplest one is to take the majority of accounts that are corroborative.

I don't think, nor care, whether the club members themselves killed Liz Stride, or whether it was some fella lurking around after the meeting or some security staff hired for that night, I do care that its being presumed a kill by Jack the Ripper, because that is not substantiated by the facts.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks Michael, very interesting.

Regarding Fanny, what does she see or hear prior to 12:50, other than the generic "measured footsteps"?
By generic, I mean that they were not particular to the night of Sep 30, 1888, if we assume these to be the footsteps of a PC.
Does she witness anything of importance, prior to the 10 minutes before 1am?

What am I getting at?
Well, by retrospectively pushing the observation start time, from 12:50 back to 12:30 (albeit "on & off"), her observational period then neatly encapsulates the Schwartz/BSM/pipeman period (with a nice big margin of error), thereby casting doubt on that entire incident.
Except of course, this comes at a price - she doesn't see any of the comings and goings in the pre-12:45 period, that her positioning would suggest should have been visible to her.
Was the 12:30-12:50 period, "prepended" to her account, to make nuisances like Israel Schwartz "go away"?
Remember, Fanny is so observant she can tell the difference between a black bag, and a shiny black bag, several yards away, at nighttime, on a dimly lit street.

Re Stride's time of death, I think the testimony of Morris Eagle is pretty interesting.

[Eagle] I was at the club on Saturday night, and did not leave till after the discussion. I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about twenty to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.
[Coroner] Did you notice anything lying on the ground?
[Eagle] No; I did not notice anything as I came in.
[Coroner] Could anything have lain there and you not seen it?
[Eagle] I don't think so.
[Coroner] When did you hear of the murder?
[Eagle] A member called Gidleman told me there was a dead woman in the yard. I went, and saw the woman lying there in much blood.
I struck a light and saw her covered in blood. I could not look at her long, so I ran for the police. Another man went for them at the same time.
There were lots of people present in the yard at the time we returned.
[Coroner] Can you fix the time the discovery was made?
[Eagle] About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.

So Eagle returns to the club at 12:40, and enters via the back door (accessed via the lane).
He sees nothing in the lane.
He is told of the murder, and observes it first-hand at about 1am.
So prior to approx 1am, Gilleman has already seen the body, returned inside, and mentioned it to Eagle.
If we use Dr Blackwell's arrival time of 1:16, and estimated elapsed time since death (20-30 mins), we can place the time of death at around 12:46-12:56.
Thus we can suppose that, within the probable window of death, there was a man (Gilleman) standing over the body.
Now there's a phrase I'm sure I've heard before

By the way, Eagle said he took off for the police, at the same time as another man.
Presumably they leave the body alone, at this point.
Has anyone ever suggested that Diemschutz was not the original discoverer of the body, but that he rediscovers it, while others are off chasing police?

[Michael W Richards]

You actually have a few points incorrect above...


1. Fanny never said she wasn't at her door pre 12:50, she said she was there "off and on".
2. Eagle says "he couldn't be sure" whether a body was there when he arrived, not that he saw nothing.
3. The earliest time frame for the cut is 12:46 to 12:56...making that immediately after Israels account. Which would make the BSM incident the smoking gun...if it happened of course. Which it apparently did not, according to the officials who organized the Inquest.
4. We do have witness that place themselves on that spot right around the earliest cut time, and Spooner says that "some men" were already gathered there when he arrived.

I think on your last point, its entirely possible Louis arrived just as it was happening or just before. That's why him not seeking help himself until after 1am is puzzling, and perhaps indicative of what transpired during that time. AP Wolf once suggested that he struck Liz as he arrived and she fell, cutting her throat on the boot scraper that was supposedly there. Who knows. Eagle went one way, and Louis and Issac[s] went another after 1am, so....why does Issak K say within an hour of the murder...yes DJA, men were interviewed immediately after the event by the press,.. that he was called into the alleyway by Louis 10 minutes after his arrival at the club at "half past" 12, then he was sent out for help. Why isn't that search mentioned by Louis? He went with Issac[s]... who almost everybody assumes was actually Kozebrodski, but who could not have been if Isaac K's interview is correct. So who did he really go with...and where is his statement? Why would he hesitate in sending out himself and Eagle until after 1am, if he did arrive just before the time 4 witnesses said the body was known to be there. Would that hesitation....if Liz is cut and just lying there during that interval, constitute some form of negligence on his part...might she have possibly been saved with quicker responses?

Might that factor make him less likely to confess the actual arrival time?

[c.d.]

Which would make the BSM incident the smoking gun...if it happened of course. Which it apparently did not, according to the officials who organized the Inquest.


Sorry, Michael but that conclusion can't be drawn from the fact that Schwartz did not appear at the inquest since no one knows why he did not.

And again let me point out that Fanny Mortimer did not appear either. Does that mean that the police simply dismissed her evidence?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Which would make the BSM incident the smoking gun...if it happened of course. Which it apparently did not, according to the officials who organized the Inquest.


Sorry, Michael but that conclusion can't be drawn from the fact that Schwartz did not appear at the inquest since no one knows why he did not.

And again let me point out that Fanny Mortimer did not appear either. Does that mean that the police simply dismissed her evidence?

c.d.

cd, he was not recorded as being at the Inquest, nothing he claimed happened was in any way recorded for the Inquest, and there is no record known anywhere that suggests that he was considered a viable witness in any shape or form, other than in some personal opinions. Like yours. No BSM, no Liz outside the passageway, no Pipeman, ...a quiet "deserted" street with only a young couple seen by witnesses. So....IF there was no Israel or the rest, and the street was empty save for the young couple, just where did Liz Strides killer likely come from? Yep...you guessed it. THE CLUB.

Fanny Mortimer didn't claim to see anything on the street other than the young couple before 12:50, and just Goldstein at 12:55...so her testimony is only relevant to the question of what happened in that interval and whose story to believe. Which was not part of the Inquest mandate. Israels statement if true had everything to do with the question of Liz Strides cause of death, in that she was seen assaulted by someone just before her murder. A Willful murder conclusion would be almost automatic.

[c.d.]

So you don't actually know FOR A FACT why Schwartz did not appear at the inquest. Is that correct?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

So you don't actually know FOR A FACT why Schwartz did not appear at the inquest. Is that correct?

c.d.

Nope, never claimed that, just that his absences in all the Inquest records make his story as to what happened that night at 12:45 invalid. We do not need to consider any of what he said, because it wasn't valid. If it was valid, it most certainly would have been in the records, and likely he would have been the Star witness too. As it is the witness that takes the stage the longest is Mary Malcolm....when the Police already knew she was wrong.

[c.d.]

Nope, never claimed that, just that his absences in all the Inquest records make his story as to what happened that night at 12:45 invalid.


Sorry but that conclusion simply does not follow from the fact that Schwartz did not appear at the inquest.

c.d.

[DJA]

This part of the Coroner's summary is fairly unequivocal .......
At 40 minutes past 12, one of the members of the club, named Morris Eagle, passed the spot where the deceased drew her last breath, passing through the gateway to the back door, which opened into the yard. At 1 o'clock the body was found by the manager of the club. He had been out all day, and returned at the time. He was in a two-wheeled barrow drawn by a pony, and as he entered the gateway his pony shied at some object on his right. There was no lamp in the yard, and having just come out of the street it was too dark to see what the object was and he passed on further down the yard. He returned on foot, and on searching found the body of deceased with her throat cut.

The exclusion of Packer and Schwartz from the Inquest is remarkable.
Both were extensively interviewed,including reportedly by Abberline.
Both had a very good look at BS man.

Having actually worked with a Criminologist good enough to be asked by Scotland Yard to travel from Australia to assist them,I strongly suspect that Frank Carter as BS man along with other facts previously linking the last C5 would concern those attempting a cover up.
Jim Drysdale was also a Professor of Psychology who spent part of his time treating other psychologists.

I've just lost a lot of this post whilst reviewing it.
Intend finishing this later when my health is better.
Ciao!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You actually have a few points incorrect above...


1. Fanny never said she wasn't at her door pre 12:50, she said she was there "off and on".
2. Eagle says "he couldn't be sure" whether a body was there when he arrived, not that he saw nothing.
3. The earliest time frame for the cut is 12:46 to 12:56...making that immediately after Israels account. Which would make the BSM incident the smoking gun...if it happened of course. Which it apparently did not, according to the officials who organized the Inquest.
4. We do have witness that place themselves on that spot right around the earliest cut time, and Spooner says that "some men" were already gathered there when he arrived.

I think on your last point, its entirely possible Louis arrived just as it was happening or just before. That's why him not seeking help himself until after 1am is puzzling, and perhaps indicative of what transpired during that time. AP Wolf once suggested that he struck Liz as he arrived and she fell, cutting her throat on the boot scraper that was supposedly there. Who knows. Eagle went one way, and Louis and Issac[s] went another after 1am, so....why does Issak K say within an hour of the murder...yes DJA, men were interviewed immediately after the event by the press,.. that he was called into the alleyway by Louis 10 minutes after his arrival at the club at "half past" 12, then he was sent out for help. Why isn't that search mentioned by Louis? He went with Issac[s]... who almost everybody assumes was actually Kozebrodski, but who could not have been if Isaac K's interview is correct. So who did he really go with...and where is his statement? Why would he hesitate in sending out himself and Eagle until after 1am, if he did arrive just before the time 4 witnesses said the body was known to be there. Would that hesitation....if Liz is cut and just lying there during that interval, constitute some form of negligence on his part...might she have possibly been saved with quicker responses?

Might that factor make him less likely to confess the actual arrival time?

1. Did I include "on & off" in brackets?
2. He may have said "he couldn't be sure" at some point. However, I simply quoted him from the Illustrated Police News - 6 October, 1888 page. Also, see your post from last November.
3. At the very least, I would want a reason for supposing that Abberline (and probably Swanson, too) could be so completely fooled by IS, before entertaining the idea that the IS/BSM/PM event never occurred. Maybe you have argued this elsewhere?
4. Why do you suppose Mortimer misses seeing these people?

Obviously there is tremendous friction between the accounts of Schwartz and Mortimer, and something has to be done to resolve the friction.
Your solution is to dismiss the legitimacy of the Schwartz account, based on the lack of witness corroboration, and his non-appearance at the inquest.
To do so this, however, you surely also need to explain:

1. How Abberline was so badly fooled by IS, in that probing interview (which was never supposed by Swanson)
2. Why other police officials apparently disagreed with Abberline's judgment of IS, and instead regard IS as so inauthentic that they prevent him from appearing at the inquest
3. Why, if Mortimer's non-observance of the IS/BSM/PM event is reason to doubt IS' account, she herself does not appear at the inquest

I take the "opposite" approach - doubting Fanny.
I do so, based on this concept; what is the least deception that can reasonably be supposed (or argued for), that explains the conflicting times and observations?

Prior to her sighting of LG (which she describes in detail), FM sees and hears little of consequence.
She hears the passing footsteps (from inside her place), and maybe she sees the romantic couple. Nothing else, as far as I know.
She misses arrivals to the club, Stride with man where PC Smith observes them to be (most likely them, at least), and of course, the Schwartz incident.
How then, can Mortimer maintain her credibility as a witness? By two means:

1. By (conveniently) claiming she is outside only intermittently in the 12:30-12:50 period
2. By claiming to hear some very high probability event - a constables footsteps

A constable walked by at roughly the same time the night before, and the night before that, etc.
She is recalling a "generic event" - something not particular to Sep 30.
What I am suggesting is: Fanny was not at any time outside her place, or even listening from the inside, between 12:30 and 12:50
This 20 minute period gets "added to the front of" the 12:50-1:00 period, after the fact.
Why? To undermine the credibility of the Schwartz incident.
Just after 1am, Fanny hears the pony and cart, right on time when we compare this to Diemschutz' sighting of the clock tower, from the other end of Berner St.
So Fanny seems to be terribly unobservant before 12:50, but she is "right on the ball" after that time, except for witnessing any activity at the gates!
Very odd (and the police seemed to have thought so, too), and as mentioned previously, she seems to have a role somewhat similar to that of pipeman.
So my hypothesis is; Fanny was bribed (and the Schwartz incident happened)

So what about the actual murder?
Let's combine these points:

• Israel Schwartz enters Berner St at ~12:45, and reaches a point inline with the gates a few minutes later (an underappreciated point?)
• Dr Blackwell's estimated time of death, has a midpoint of 12:51
• At approx 12:55, Leon Goldstein walks by the club, and looks over his right shoulder (according to FM), almost as though he sees something unusual in the lane, but does not pause to investigate further

It's as though we can lock the time of Stride's death, down to 12:51 +/- 3 minutes.