Diemschutz' pony and cart - an obstruction to proceedings?

[DJA]

Rolf Harris Show 22nd March 1969 - Jake The Peg BBC - YouTube

[Herlock Sholmes]

. So some of the cachous is scattered around, some in the gutter, and some (more or less) in Stride's left hand.
We need a theory compatible with all 3 locations!

The quote used from Dr Phillips said: “The left arm was extended from the elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.”

How do you get 3 locations from that? Hand and gutter. They were wrapped in paper and some were obviously dropped. Is this a mystery?

[DJA]

Dr Blackwell spillled some cachous when removing them from her left forefinger and thumb.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The quote used from Dr Phillips said: “The left arm was extended from the elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.”

How do you get 3 locations from that? Hand and gutter. They were wrapped in paper and some were obviously dropped. Is this a mystery?

Did wonder if you'd be joining us Herlock. It's a cracker this thread. I said in an early post it should be in "creative writing", I've not changed my mind. But like a motorway accident, I dare to watch, but cannot look away!

[drstrange169]

>> An open hand can't exert a lot of pressure through both thumb and fingers simultaneously, and even if it could, wouldn't the bluish discoloration look just like that?<<

I‘m assuming you’ve managed to get through life thus far without ever pinching someone, or in turn, been pinched. Of course, thumb and fingers can exert pressure simultaneously!

The bluish discolourations are called a bruises, they are almost an inevitable result of fingers and thumb exerting pressure simultaneously amongst other things.

By the way, pressure from fingers and thumb is something noted in some of the other murders, see Doctor Llewellyn’s inquest comments.



>>There is something about this bluish discoloration that has Dr Phillips puzzled, or at the very least curious.<<

He wasn’t puzzling over anything, he was doing his job, observing the progression of a bruise after death to determine when it was caused.

In the end, as Dr Blackwell Blackwell noted,
“… it was difficult to say how recently they were produced.”



>> … someone(s) are holding Stride while the scarf is tied very tightly around her neck.<<

So we now have added a third person into the mix. Three attacking Mrs Stride simultaneously, one untying then re-tying Mrs Strides scarf.



>>Open palms holding Liz's arms against her body are not going to cause bruising.<<

Open palms?

So he wasn’t actually holding her, just pressing his thumbs into her chest?

One has to wonder why she didn’t just push him away if she wasn’t being actually held.

And can you explain how you press your thumbs into a chest whist your palms are pressing someone's arms against their body?




>> ...blanket ...<<

As noted previously the blanket business doesn’t warrant discussing for me.



>> .. he doesn't see a pony and cart, because the nightwatchman chases him away before it arrives!<<

Ah, so now Deimshitz wasn’t actually involved, or are you saying two men held on to Mrs Stride for 15 minutes, without, of course actually holding on to her, only using open palms, finally cutting her throat when the pony arrives, to spray the blood in its face.



>>The evidence I am working off:
Dr Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.<<

Then perhaps the evidence you should be working on with regard to the cachous is,
“It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand.” Dr Blackwell.



>>The cachous, lack of blood spray, tight scarf, bluish discoloration, body position and other elements of the puzzle, all need to be explained by a sequence of events that do not contradict each other, or any of the known facts and high-probables. That's difficult! <<

Not really, it’s very simple.

Mrs Stride and the killer enter the yard. (By which one’s instigation, is unknown.)

Reaching the spot, where she was found, the killer either:

Subdues Mrs Stride by some method, be it, strangulation, drug, pressure point or some other method, places her on the ground.

Or pulls out a knife and tells her to get on the ground and not to scream, under penalty of death.

Once on the ground, the killer grabs the scarf, lifts her head pulling the scarf tight and cuts her throat.

Because the killer is holding Mrs Strides head up by the scarf, the cut naturally follows the line of the scarf.

There would be no arterial spray, no staining on the front of the clothes and is in accordance with, the very experienced, Dr Phillips's summation of what happened.


Is that what happened? None of us know, but it covers the forensic evidence, explains the cachous, the position of the body and the lack of disarrangement of the clothes.
No over complicated conspiracy stories.

As Dr Blackwell noted when the the bruises happened is unknown.

Ocram’s Razor.



>>The blanket is just my first attempt at reconciling everything, without introducing anything outlandish.<<

In which case, I’d hate to hear what you think is outlandish;-)


>> One more thing; you keep saying I should read the evidence.
Okay, but what exactly counts as evidence?<<

Things like, Dr Blackwell explaining he dropped the cachous, anatomical knowledge of what hands are capable of doing, what a bruise looks like, how they are caused and what doctors do at an autopsy, etc.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The quote used from Dr Phillips said: “The left arm was extended from the elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.”

How do you get 3 locations from that? Hand and gutter. They were wrapped in paper and some were obviously dropped. Is this a mystery?

This is pretty bad.
Here with the quote I gave, with helper emphasis added:

Dr Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.

Hand, gutter, yard - that would be 3 locations (albeit one broad one).

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Did wonder if you'd be joining us Herlock. It's a cracker this thread. I said in an early post it should be in "creative writing", I've not changed my mind. But like a motorway accident, I dare to watch, but cannot look away!

So what's your excuse?
I'd hate to think it was simple dishonesty.

[Ven]

Here with the quote I gave, with helper emphasis added:

Dr Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.
Hand, gutter, yard - that would be 3 locations (albeit one broad one).

I'm not sure what all this means. Dr Phillips doesn't answer the question about "..very suddenly and without any struggle?" and what this has to do with how the cachous got to where they were found. I'm not sure what the point is about the cachous being in three places (and that they still could all be very close together).
Not having a go, just wondering how the placement of the cachous affects anything?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Here with the quote I gave, with helper emphasis added:

Dr Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.
Hand, gutter, yard - that would be 3 locations (albeit one broad one).

I'm not sure what all this means. Dr Phillips doesn't answer the question about "..very suddenly and without any struggle?" and what this has to do with how the cachous got to where they were found. I'm not sure what the point is about the cachous being in three places (and that they still could all be very close together).
Not having a go, just wondering how the placement of the cachous affects anything?

Hello Ven.

---

Stride Inquest
Day 4, Monday, October 5, 1888
Dr. Phillips, surgeon of the H Division of police, being recalled, said:
...
...
[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.
...

---

Cachous in the yard suggests a struggle.
A struggle suggests noise and probable cries for help.
No cries for help were heard (although watch this space).

A struggle also has implications for how she was held down to have her throat cut, and perhaps in what part of the yard also.
If you suppose he put a sock in her mouth, she could just take it out, unless he holds her arms, but then how does he cut her throat?
Maybe he gets her down on the ground, face into the cobblestones?
Except that her face ended up clean, and clothes were tidy.

Every "solution" creates a new problem - that's virtually the definition of Ripperology.

[Ven]

Hi NBFN,

Cachous in the yard suggests a struggle.

Hmm... not necessarily...and we know the Dr also knocked (?) some out of her hand.
The "(although watch this space)"intrigues me...looking forward to it.

[DustyBones]

If we are to believe Schwartz's statement, there was most definitely a struggle.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Did wonder if you'd be joining us Herlock. It's a cracker this thread. I said in an early post it should be in "creative writing", I've not changed my mind. But like a motorway accident, I dare to watch, but cannot look away!

Hello Al, I’m drawn to a good conspiracy (but I should have read the quote fully though rather than making a quick post whilst waiting for a taxi) We began with a post doubting whether Diemschutz would have been able to have reached the corpse with a whip. Dave then posted the picture of the Coster’s wagon which appears to answer that one without issue but we’re ploughing on. I need to read the thread fully. My issue (as it always is) is that if you look hard enough for a mystery or a conspiracy you’re bound to find one (or ten)

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The whip was just the beginning, wait till you get to the gang of Jews with their blanket, Deimschitz' blood lusting pony and Fanny Mortimer being in on the whole thing.
I eagerly await the trademark blue shaking heads.

[drstrange169]

>>Cachous in the yard suggests a struggle.<<

Dr Phillips's full and more precise quote,

"The CORONER. - Does the presence of the cachous in her hand show that it was done suddenly or would it simply show a muscular grasp?
Witness. - No; I cannot say. You will remember some of the cachous were found in the gutter."

Dr Blackwell was re-called to explain the errant breath sweeteners,

"I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand."



>> A struggle suggests noise and probable cries for help.<<

All witnesses concurred the was no sign of a struggle.



>>A struggle also has implications for how she was held down to have her throat cut,...<<

But you've told us Mrs Strides throat was cut whilst she was standing?



>> ... and perhaps in what part of the yard also.<<

Dr Phillips said,

"Were there any spots of blood anywhere else? - I could trace none except that which I considered had been transplanted - if I may use the term - from the original flow from the neck."

So transplanted blood by footprints were only found emanating from the blood stream. Thanks Blackwell's assistant, Johnston, we know those transplanted bloody foot prints only happened AFTER he arrived,

"Can you say whether any one had stepped into the stream of blood? - There was no mark of it."



>>Except that her face ended up clean, and clothes were tidy.<<

"Mud on face and left side of the head. Matted on the hair and left side. ... Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud." Dr Phillips

[Michael W Richards]

>> Another lie in bold above, all other witness accounts have only the left hand gate open. Its why Liz wasnt visible from the street, she was behind it, and we have corroberation for that to have been the normal case by prior witness observations on other nights.<<


Ummm ...

"I went into the yard, and noticed that the gates were opened." William Wess

"I saw nothing on the ground. The gates were thrown wide back. Morris Eagle

"I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." The young women meeting her sweetheart as reported in the Echo.

Well.. I admit that I am mistaken, my single source doesn't trump 3 separate sources. But on that note, Louis's singular account of what happened and when, and Eagles singular account of his arrival back at the club, and Israel's singular account of what he says he saw doesn't trump 4 separate witness accounts who say they were by a dying woman lying in the passageway at 12:45.