Astrology and Ripperology

[23Skidoo]

I've been looking at the astrological event charts for the murders. I'm no expert but they are very interesting. Need to study them a bit more first though, would be interesting to see how the natal charts of suspects connect to. Yes its unorthodox but even the cops employ psychics...

[Doctor X]

Astrology has been debunked rather definitively over the decades. Here is a nice thorough explanation:

But the bottom line is that at best, the gravity from the planets in our solar system is a tiny fraction of the Moon's. So if gravity were the force behind astrology, then the Moon would dominate all the planets combined. Yet it doesn't in any astrologer's horoscope.

Bad Astronomy

Indeed, your computer exerts a greater gravitational influence on you.

No police psychic has actually solved a case. Many have tried to claim credit for wide guesses--"body . . . near a body of water . . . a tree"--after the fact. Many have retrofitted their wide predictions to later facts, ignoring all of their misses. No one seems to recall the colossal failures, such as all of the supposed psychics that declared the abducted girl in Utah dead . . . only to find her quite alive.

Perhaps the best statement on "police psychics" comes from Mark Klaas:

Psychic Detectives are the vanguard of a second wave of predators that also includes tabloid journalists, cheesy defense lawyers and photo-op politicians. They use tabloid newspapers and talk shows to boast about their accomplishments and predict success. They materialize whenever children are kidnapped and circle the cases like vultures on a fresh carcass.

They scan the media for the haunting eyes of desperate parents willing to do anything to recover their children and then they show up on your doorstep, literally or figuratively, to make the pitch. They claim to be on the cutting edge of communications, able to predict future events and reach into heaven and hell with their mind. They hold your hand, massage your psyche and convince you that the only thing separating you from their extraordinary gift is your money. However, some simply require airfare and living expenses, what we call a vacation. They seem to answer the prayer that ends the nightmare, but only if you can afford the ticket.

Frantic parents will do anything and they offer something, which is better than nothing. Few of us posses the resources to underwrite crisis, let alone psychic detectives so they should be reminded that a substantial reward awaits whoever solves the case and returns the stolen child.

Although that strategy eliminates most psychics, some maintain a foothold by appealing to superstitiously vulnerable family members. They make provocative predictions. In California, rolling hills, a road or highway, perhaps a building or a bubbling brook. In Arizona, sand dunes replace rolling hills and cactus substitutes the bubbling brook: In other words, they describe ninety-five percent of the geography of the western United States.

Psychic detectives do not posses supernatural insight, they do not converse with the missing or the dead, they never bring children home. However, their rambling predictions may have filled in enough gaps to pad their resumes and claim the reward.

A few months after Polly was recovered a psychic claimed that she solved Polly’s case on the television program Hard Copy. Not only was she using my daughter’s death to promote herself, but she also dismissed all of the wonderful people: police, media, and volunteers who worked so hard and tirelessly to locate my child.

In truth, that psychic detectives contribution to the case was counter productive. As always seems to be the case with psychic predictions, her interference created distraction. Law enforcement resources are diverted toward useless endeavors as phantom leads disappear into thin air. One cold and dark November evening many of us were lurking around somebody’s property because the psychic said that it held the key to my daughter’s disappearance. With the heightened sense of paranoia that already existed in the community that property owner would have been well within his rights to blow us away on the spot for trespassing. We were very fortunate that night, because although he did angrily confront us, he had absolutely nothing to do with the crime we were investigating.

In the end, and despite their protests, there is not even one case of a psychic truly assisting or solving a missing child case. It’s just smoke and mirrors. Their references do not support their claims and law enforcement cannot acknowledge their existence. Instead, their wishful thinking collides with your desperate hope and leaves you diminished.

Unfortunately, the next time a little child is kidnapped and mom and dad reach the end of their emotional string the vague, empty promises of the psychic detective will rebound off the stark walls of the missing child’s bedroom and a photo or toy will be palmed as the negotiations are engaged. It is inevitable: I predict it.

Klass Kids

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Blackkat]

Actually - I have to agree, most psychics are used as a last resort and most cops don't put much credit or faith into them, BUT every so often they do help and more than just wide guesses. For instance this case:

http://weeklywire.com/ww/11-24-97/gambit_covs.html

Do I believe in astrology? Yes, so I may be in the minority here, but I would love to take a look at those natal charts too. Charts of the victims that is. I'm sure that it couldn't be used as a difinitive, but in looking at them, and getting some things that may be been eerily in common, it might spaw a thought process - brainstorming - that could open something up that hasn't been thought of yet. (not too much hasn't been thought of yet but you get my point)

If one is interested in astrology and they think there may be something there, I say go for it. After all in end conclusions, usually truth is stranger than fiction, and there is USUALLY a little truth in everything.

[Vigilantee]

Pragmatism is the best approach. It would be a distraction to argue about the method, though I dont think any contemporary astrologer believes its a matter of cause and effect, so I totally agree with the evil doctor there lol.

[Doctor X]

Actually - I have to agree, most psychics are used as a last resort. . . .

Actually, they--as Klaas explains--tend to insert themselves into the case.

For instance this case:

http://weeklywire.com/ww/11-24-97/gambit_covs.html

lacks any details to demonstrate credibility. Most psychic perform cold reading--a form of twenty questions--in which they basically regurgitate to you what you have already told them peppered with leading questions.

You seem to have not read the ending of the article where the cops doubt the powers psychic. I would remind the criticism leveled by many: where were these "psychics" on 9/10?

Do I believe in astrology? Yes, . . .

Belief is meaningless; can you answer the criticisms and disproof?

Otherwise, with all due respect, you might as well state you believe the Earth is flat, the Moon landing was hoaxed, and Geddy Lee can sing.

. . . and there is USUALLY a little truth in everything.

No, there usually is not; reality is not a matter of opinion.

Crap is crap.

That is why it is crap.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Doctor X]

Here is a nice summary: Psychic Detective

--J.D.

[Christine]

Neither astrology nor psychic power has ever been demonstrated to work under controlled conditions, i.e. when the psychic/astrologer could not cheat, either consciously or unconsciously. Articles like that linked to above are common; when looked into, they usually turn out to be inaccurate.

I know of only one verified case where a psychic actually did help the police, and the police promptly arrested her for complicity! It was later shown that the psychic and the murderer had a mutual friend, and although it was never proven, it's likely that the friend chose to give an anonymous tip this way. If the friend hadn't been mislead by stories like the one above, presumably he would have found a better way to tip off the police.

The usual controlled test for astrology goes something like this: an astrologer is given the birth data on ten or so people--all of the same gender, approximate age, same sun sign, and from more or less the same geographic area. The astrologer casts charts and writes horoscopes and the ten subjects are asked to pick their own. The information is controlled so that no one can cheat. Seven of ten picking their own chart is considered a pass.

No record exists of any astrologer ever passing this test, and that's about as basic a test as I can imagine.

(The reason for having everyone be the same gender, etc., is to keep the astrologer from saying things like "You loved playing in the snow as a child" or "You are bull-headed (to a Taurus) in the horoscopes.)

[Blackkat]

"You seem to have not read the ending of the article where the cops doubt the powers psychic."

Actually, yes I did. I chose the article to show both sides. I should have been exxxtremely clear.

Doctor X - "Actually, they--as Klaas explains--tend to insert themselves into the case."

I agree with that too, BUT as cops have stated before, when they use a psychic or sensitive, it's usually as a last resort.

"Belief is meaningless; can you answer the criticisms and disproof?"

Perhaps your opinion is that belief is meaningless. I do think that JUST believing in something isn't enough - if I thought otherwise I wouldn't have said some of the things I did when I answered the original poster. Do I believe in astrology, yes, some astrological practices I do. Do I think it's the end all be all. NO

"and there is USUALLY a little truth in everything.

No, there usually is not; reality is not a matter of opinion."

We can clearly see by this last answer of yours, that your answer is strictly YOUR opinion. Reality may not be a matter of opinion, but there is a little truth in all the ripper books, they may not be all completely 100% on the mark, but there is truth in all of them. MY opinion is that there is a little bit of truth in everything. Just like there may be a little bit of sh*t in everything too.

23Skidoo,

So back to what you were saying, I still see no reason why you shouldn't look at the charts. If that's what interests you, by all means go ahead. It won't get you anywhere with 98% of the ripper world and those who claim to be "ripperologists" but if it's something that you want to do on your own to see the similarities or lack thereof. I think that's great. It can be, as you said, interesting, regardless of what anyone else thinks. There's people traveling thousands of miles to find a single hospital record during the JtR murders, by all means why not look a natal chart. LOL

[Doctor X]

I agree with that too, BUT as cops have stated before, when they use a psychic or sensitive, it's usually as a last resort.

And it fails . . . unless, as Christine magNIfIcently demonstrated, the psychic has a rather mundane explanation for the information!

Perhaps your opinion is that belief is meaningless.

It is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact.

Either you have evidence or you do not.

Do I believe in astrology, yes, . . .

Yet, apparently, you have not questioned it. You have no answer to the rebuttals. Thus, belief is meaningless yet again.

We can clearly see by this last answer of yours, . . .

Absent any rebuttal or supportive evidence, there exists no reason to conclude otherwise.

. . . that your answer is strictly YOUR opinion.

Sorry, fact. It is not the opinion of MOI; it is the conclusion of "men skilled in this work."

You are perfectly free to demonstrate reality is wrong.

Why have you not done this?

Reality may not be a matter of opinion, . . .

It is, as Philip K. Dick noted, that which, when you cease believing in it, will not go away.

MY opinion is that there is a little bit of truth in everything.

YOUR opinion, rebutted by fact is meaningless.

Just like there may be a little bit of sh*t in everything too.

No, not really.

There is no Easter Bunny either.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Sam Flynn]

There's people traveling thousands of miles to find a single hospital record during the JtR murders, by all means why not look a natal chart.

Here's one, Kat:



...oh! You meant natal with a small "n"

[Doctor X]

Awesome!

--J.D.

[23Skidoo]

Belief is meaningless; can you answer the criticisms and disproof?

Otherwise, with all due respect, you might as well state you believe the Earth is flat, the Moon landing was hoaxed, and Geddy Lee can sing.

Well belief is all we got dood. There is no proof or disproof apart from within the minds of the neurotically insecure certainty seeker. proofs only apply to formal logical or mathematical systems. I agree on critique, but this only alters plausibility or the subjective probability of a belief.

No, there usually is not; reality is not a matter of opinion.

reality is reality, but all we see is appearance.

Crap is crap.

That is why it is crap.

No, Crap is not ****, its a perfectly good dice game.

Seriously if you want to talk about the veracity of astrology, psychics or science, or whether the assumptions of science, or principles like okham's razor, are provable or not, we can open a thread in the pub section, but you're on very shakey ground here.

I'm not interested in flawed experiments either, I'm a pragmatist, when these things work (as they have for me) I use them, when they don't I don't. A lot of psychics are wrong its true as are a lot of profiling psychologists.

Ultimately this debate is pointless.........

Back to the original thread.

[Doctor X]

And the rebuttal of the extensive debunkings of astrology is . . . where?

Anyone?

Bueler?

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[23Skidoo]

The debunkings merely refute false perceptions of astrology, such as sun sign nonsense. But read my ammended post above.

And the rebuttal of the extensive debunkings of astrology is . . . where?

Anyone?

Bueler?

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Doctor X]

I mean, do we need to call NASA? Tell them to re-do their calculations regarding gravitational and electromagnetic influence?

Or should one simply face reality honestly and dispense with such childish things?

Yours truly,

--J.D.