Astrology and Ripperology

[Christine]

If you (or anyone else) can pass the ten-people-pick-their-horoscope test (using sun signs, Chinese astrology, or any other methods you like), I'll start taking astrology seriously. In the meantime, there's millions of techniques that MIGHT work sometimes, including pig entrails, but I don't see why someone would spend more time on astrology than something that at least gets you some bacon to eat....

[23Skidoo]

I'm still working on the Charts, but what's interesting so far is the murders appear to be signified by a Pluto (sex and violence) opposition to Jupiter (excess), which is alligned with Mars (aggression) in the same House at the time of the murders. Oddly Saturn also seems to play a role in some, which in this context seems to denote puritan modes of thought. Maybe the Ripper was an orthodox religionist and hypocrite. Though these charts merely symbolise the broader events not necessarily the mind of the killer or anyone else. Pluto is retrograde which traditionally means deviancy or crime.

Curiously in the double event Saturn is in the First House at the time of the Stride murder, which would mean an act signified by this chart will not be able to happen or will be blocked in some way. Also the murder signifiers are not in the same opposite houses. Forty five minutes later Saturn has left the First House and the planets alligned properly.

Note for skeptics - this is a symbolic relationship of signification, not cause and effect, it operates on an ideational dimension of material reality not a physical one.

I'll next look at victims and suspects charts, as well as refining the above.

[23Skidoo]

Yes Hororscopes are rubbish, I agree.

If you (or anyone else) can pass the ten-people-pick-their-horoscope test (using sun signs, Chinese astrology, or any other methods you like), I'll start taking astrology seriously. In the meantime, there's millions of techniques that MIGHT work sometimes, including pig entrails, but I don't see why someone would spend more time on astrology than something that at least gets you some bacon to eat....

[Doctor X]

I mean, what has SCIENCE [!--Ed.] done for us?

Other than the clean water, the roads, medicines, space exploration, and PEZ?

*Ascends Soapbox* There is nothing virtuous in appeals to fantasy and disproven modalities. Such wastes time, such wastes resources. Such promotes ignorance.

The world, universe, are all "magical enough;" we do not need to crap them up with unproven fantasies.*Christine Pushes Him Off Soapbox*

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Christine]

Note for skeptics - this is a symbolic relationship of signification, not cause and effect, it operates on an ideational dimension of material reality not a physical one.

I'll next look at victims and suspects charts, as well as refining the above.

I'm not sure what ideational dimension of material reality means, though. If you were to write down my "ideas" I'm sure I could pick myself out of a list of ten similar descriptions of other people.

What you're claiming is that by looking at suspect's charts, you can pick the person most likely to be a serial killer. Surely any method that can do that should be able to pass my ten persons test under controlled conditions.

I've actually seen astrologers fail exactly that test. Someone gave an astrologer a bunch of birth dates and birth places, and they threw a serial killer in there. I don't remember which one, but it was a pretty famous guy, and if the astrologer had done a little research he could have made the testers look dumb. But for better or for worse, the astrologer was honest, and astrology did not tell him that the subject was a serial killer.

[23Skidoo]

Skeptic!!

I find it odd you still insist of thinking of astrology in terms of the effects of physical forces, when I've already said I agree and its got nothing to do with physical causes. I've never met an intelligent astrologer who believes in a physicalist explanation for astrology. There are cranks who believe that planets effect things electromagnetically yes but dont use them in your strawman arguements. Its possible there are mixed 'mechanisms' involved, including weak lunar effects (personally I'm sceptical though). Consciousness escapes physical explanation and so do many other 'semiotic' phenomena.

I mean, do we need to call NASA? Tell them to re-do their calculations regarding gravitational and electromagnetic influence?

Or should one simply face reality honestly and dispense with such childish things?

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Doctor X]

. . . including pig entrails, but I don't see why someone would spend more time on astrology than something that at least gets you some bacon to eat....

So Jack was not an astrologer but a haruspician?



Thank you . . . I am here all week.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Christine]

We cross posted. I would consider your charts to be horoscopes, although hardly of the silly daily newspaper variety. I'll use your terminology, if you'll forgive me for being confused.

[Doctor X]

What you're claiming is that by looking at suspect's charts, you can pick the person most likely to be a serial killer. Surely any method that can do that should be able to pass my ten persons test under controlled conditions.

And yet it cannot.

Why not use it now. If it is so reliable. Should make police work so much more certain. Other than that problem that it is utter crap.

I will note that much of astrological reading is a variation of cold reading where the astrologer receives information through discussion with the subject. As the linkypoos and Christine--and moi--noted, when such avenues of information are removed, the astrologer falls to chance guess.

So . . . let us randomly guess suspects. Works just as well.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[23Skidoo]

By ideational I'm refering to a Neutral Monist or Aspect Dualist ontology, a mix of Materialism and Idealism.

I think this guy must have been a bad astrologer. But I'm not saying thats what I'm doing, its an interesting idea though. Unfortunately astrology cant really be done blind or tested objectively as its symbols are contextual and subjective. So it cant be scientifically modelled, which means theres nothing like objective 'certainty' involved. Its an art, it either brings results or it doesnt depending on the skill of the astrologer. I would expect a serial killer to be detectable in a chart though fairly easily, I'll have a look myself, of course the problem is we dont know what the psychology of such a person is, if the tested astrologer had silly ideas like 'evil' and 'violent' I would expect he got it wrong. One armed with a proper understanding should get it right. I'm not suggesting I do, but I'll look.

I'm not sure what ideational dimension of material reality means, though. If you were to write down my "ideas" I'm sure I could pick myself out of a list of ten similar descriptions of other people.

What you're claiming is that by looking at suspect's charts, you can pick the person most likely to be a serial killer. Surely any method that can do that should be able to pass my ten persons test under controlled conditions.

I've actually seen astrologers fail exactly that test. Someone gave an astrologer a bunch of birth dates and birth places, and they threw a serial killer in there. I don't remember which one, but it was a pretty famous guy, and if the astrologer had done a little research he could have made the testers look dumb. But for better or for worse, the astrologer was honest, and astrology did not tell him that the subject was a serial killer.

[23Skidoo]

Ahhhhh randomness, no such thing
So we've agreed our ontologies and metaphysics are a world apart.

NOW I'M RETURNING TO THE PICTURE AND NOT ITS FRAME.

And yet it cannot.

Why not use it now. If it is so reliable. Should make police work so much more certain. Other than that problem that it is utter crap.

I will note that much of astrological reading is a variation of cold reading where the astrologer receives information through discussion with the subject. As the linkypoos and Christine--and moi--noted, when such avenues of information are removed, the astrologer falls to chance guess.

So . . . let us randomly guess suspects. Works just as well.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[Doctor X]

*Pushes Christine Off Soapbox . . . Crawls Back Up*

This argumentum ad[No Latin!--Ed.] appeal to ignorance is fallacious. This, "well . . . SCIENCE [!--Ed.] does not know everything so it makes my belief possible!" simply does not work.

You cannot fit the disproven into irrelevant ignorance. [What?--Ed.] That physicists have not created a "theory of everything" or know how quantum works with special relativity . . . that ignorance . . . does not make my claim of being Nicole Kidman's Snuggle-Bunny possible!

You cannot "shoe-horn" the impossible into the current areas of ignorance.

Yours with too much caffeine,

--J.D.

[The Good Michael]

I just noticed this thread. I wish I hadn't. It is beyond my mental capacity to understand how anyone can believe that stars, planets, and other celestial bodies can have anything to do with predestination, or that they are somehow responsible for the creation of human archetypes. I find it somewhat disheartening that rational beings can still cling to such things to guide them out of their daily moments of desperation.

After my morning cappuccino, I'll be examining the entrails of one of my bullocks that I raise for such purposes. I may even cast some bones onto the ground, read tea leaves, or if this were the 60s, I would be taking LSD and reading truth from my own hallucinations.

I must go now. My dowsing rod is starting to twitch even as I speak. When a dowsing rod responds so quickly, one must...well... dowse!

Cheers,

Mike

[Doctor X]

I wonder if anyone has dowsed in Whitechapel for the location of the Ripper's home?

*Flees Flying Bricks*

I do not mind that someone is curious. I do not mind that one may feel a certain attraction to the magical. Who would not like such powers?

However, when the evidence is there--ready to be understood--I really have to withdraw my patience for such. It is willful ignorance, and there is no virtue in that.

--J.D.

[Blackkat]

Wow you all got your views out and basically insulted yet another poster. This place never stops criticising other posters that aren't in the "usual" way of thinking around here. Who CARES. If you don't like it then either say so and be gone to another thread or don't BOTHER with it. If it's truely unimportant to you and you think it's ridiculous why waste time in a thread you dislike.

Now about Saturn.. which can be a bad thing, depending on certain things in the chart. I'd love to see what the chart shows, for pure curiosity. Then again I'm usually one of the minority around these parts. I sit so middle of the fence on just about everything I have no definate either way. That's why I'm tolerant of anyone that wants to do something a little out of the ordinary. It gets stuffy and redundant most of the time.