Before it's too late

[sdreid]

The only known filament I have to the Ripper case is my granduncle, Tom Shepherd, who was a guard at Joliet Prison around the time Cream and/or his double were there. I have a mirror of his that was made by one of the prisoners although almost certainly not Cream or his double.

[chudmuskett]

About the only thing that I can think of regards the destroyed City of London files. That is, is there anyone still alive (perhaps a clerk or something) who might have looked at them before 1940 when they were still extant? And, could we find that person and could they remember something they saw in there that would increase our knowledge? They would at least be in their 80s by now if any still exist.

I have to ask, would anyone actually believe them? Theres always a split when new evidence appears and yet again, we end up at square one.

[sdreid]

Yes, I'm sure it would be met with skepticism but what alternative is left?

[sdreid]

Were all the murder surfaces dug out or just covered over?

[sdreid]

If they were just covered then a little forensic archeology is just possible.

[sdreid]

The only digging I've heard suggested is exhumation of the victims though. Likely not much other than teeth would remain.

[sdreid]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, we dug up Jesse James after about the same length of time in the ground and all that was there were teeth and some crumbling bone fragments.

[sdreid]

We curse those who pilfer the files but in the case of the City Police we have to hope that someone did and will now share them with us.

[DrHopper]

The only digging I've heard suggested is exhumation of the victims though. Likely not much other than teeth would remain.

Hi Stan

Speaking as an archaeologist, the level of decay witnessed in an individual corpse depends on a number of conditions (humidity, temperature, acidity, among others). I have worked on human burials of which nothing remains but a discolouration in the soil. Conversely, I have been somewhat shocked upon opening a storage box containing a burial removed from a mid-Victorian churchyard, to discover that the individual inside had pale skin and long blonde hair.
Given the geology of London, and the burial conditions of the time - even pauper burials - I am certain that the remains of MJK et al would all be skeletal, but perfectly preserved and articulated.

Continuing the archaeological theme - i would like to see a full survey done of the remaining buildings of interest, with photographs, plans and complete records. The same could be done for those no longer standing - a complete survey and plan of the areas. I have mentioned elsewhere on the forum that i believe very strongly we can learn a lot from the social, physical and psychological 'landscape' of JTR, and am trying to put in place a project that achieves this.

The excavation of Miller's Court would be a real coup, i think. It is unlikely to have been dug up and effaced completely - more likely just filled in and covered over - similarly with other buildings. Getting permission to excavate would be a different matter!
However, i did spend 2 months seveal yearsr ago, excavating the medieval cemetery at Spitalfields market - fun fun fun! And all throughout the area, lying on top of the old cemetery, were the footing of 17th and 18th century houses, complete with fireplaces and doorways.

[sdreid]

Hi Dr. Hopper:

I don't know if it's true but someone on here some years ago said that it was probable that the victims' graves had been reused several times over by now.

Thanks for the insight.

[The Grave Maurice]

I like your attitude, DrHopper, but, if you have spent time in Spitalfields, you must know what is now on the former site of Miller's Court. Good luck with getting permission to dig there.

[DrHopper]

I like your attitude, DrHopper, but, if you have spent time in Spitalfields, you must know what is now on the former site of Miller's Court. Good luck with getting permission to dig there.

Quite!
It's actually quite frustrating standing on the site and knowing what lies some 4 feet below your feet, but being totally unable to get to it. Anyone fancy joining me in a spot of midnight digging? (he half-joked!)

I'm amazed at how little we know about the murder sites. I remarked elsewhere that i was planning out the precise details of Miller's Court, room by room, and was becoming frustrated by the conflicting reports - contemporary and later.

One of the aspects of the project I am designing is to mark out accurately (or as accurately as possible) the location of Miller's Court measuring and transposing from old maps. We all know roughly where it is, but it would be good to know more precisely.

And as for grave re-use. Alas, that is quite likely, especially as none of the victms were buried in anything other than standard graves in the low end of the burial spectrum, and in the poor parts of the cemeteries.

Actually, that is a valid question (and almost slightly off topic) - how certain are we that the grave sites are indeed the actual gravesites (i.e. the markers are actually marking the correct person below).

Just out of interest, has anyone ever applied to get the victims exhumed?
I'm not sure how much more information they would provide - DNA certainly, data regarding health, vital statistics (height, approx. weight), etc. Possible forensic data regarding JTR methods (cut marks on bone, etc). Actually, now that i think about it, given current archaeo-forensic techniques, there is masses of information waiting to be gleaned - none of it would directly lead to the killer, but every little bit helps.

How far has this avenue been pursued. Home Office regulations are very tight, and individuals cannot apply to get bodies exhumed. However, there may be a case made to the police, CP service, Home Office, etc. that as an unsolved case, given its notoriety, and given advances in forensics, an exhumation of one, or more, would be in the public interest. Just a thought.

[sdreid]

I haven't heard of anyone petitioning to get a victim exhumed. When someone brought it up here several year ago, there was a big uproar. Since no one who knew the victims is still living I don't see what the big issue is.

Regarding the sites, how about tunneling?

[DrHopper]

"how about tunneling"

I like this! Now we're getting somewhere!
However, and in all serousness, i think we could solve this problem without putting a shovel in the ground. Using ground penetrating radar and various other geophysical methods of remote surveying, it is possible to establish what remains below the present surface. The radar would provide a view of the sub-surface remains, giving a detailed layout (should one remain) and allow us to see the location and dimensions of Miller's Court (if it still exists).
This will require a little bit of thought and planning, and permission from whomever owns the road, but would only take a few hours and is non-invasive - so no heavy duty permission would be neccesary. This could be interesting.

About the exhumation. Interesting that it caused an uproar; I'm not sure i see the problem either as it seems a fairly standard step in solving a murder - examining the body. Even if living relatives were found, i'm sure they too would want every effort to be made to bring the murderer to justice, even if that meant exhumation.

[The Grave Maurice]

There are people around here who know a lot more about the victims' gravesites than I do but, as I understand it, even if permission to exhume the bodies could be obtained, identifying the location of the graves would be problematic.

I believe Stride's grave site is known, although it's unmarked. Kelly's is marked but I seem the recall there is some doubt about whether the headstone is marking the correct grave. I don't think we know exactly where Chapman is buried, and for Nichols and Eddowes we know only the general area.

Not much to go on.