Before it's too late

[DrHopper]

There are people around here who know a lot more about the victims' gravesites than I do but, as I understand it, even if permission to exhume the bodies could be obtained, identifying the location of the graves would be problematic.

I believe Stride's grave site is known, although it's unmarked. Kelly's is marked but I seem the recall there is some doubt about whether the headstone is marking the correct grave. I don't think we know exactly where Chapman is buried, and for Nichols and Eddowes we know only the general area.

Not much to go on.

Alas, I thought as much.
Pie in the sky i realise, but even if we came to a stage where we could apply for exhumation permission, they would not grant it unless we could be 100% certain where the grave(s) are - they tend to frown upon large earth movers randomly digging holes in cemeteries! Perhaps with a little more research, and a careful reading of the post interment history of the cemeteries we may be able to do better (i'll put it on my 'to do' list!).

[sdreid]

Was the hyoid checked on these women to see if they'd been strangled or did they even know to look at that back then? That bone is thin enough that it's unlikely that it would still be intact but who knows!? It would help if the coffin was still holding up. I suppose it could have been damaged by the knife but it's my impression that the cuts were high enough to miss it. Anyway, that's something that could possibly be learned from an exhumation.

[sdreid]

Other than the bones of the inner ear, it must be about the least durable bone in the body.

[Magpie]

Was the hyoid checked on these women to see if they'd been strangled or did they even know to look at that back then? .

An excerpt from the trial of MARGUERITE DIXBLANC, 1872 seems to suggest it was a routine part the autopsy:

DR. WILLIAM WADHAM:...I naturally examined the throat and wind pipe, and found two fractures of the hyoid bone, also a fracture of the hyoid cartilage, and one of the cracoid cartilage, just at the left of the medium line—I should also say that there was blood poured out under the mucous membrane of the right vocal cord—that is what we use in articulation—these different bones and cartilages which I have described, are parts of the structure of the throat through which the voice passes, and the blood—they showed that some very great violence must have been applied to the throat—it comes to this, that the architecture, the frame of the throat was broken; the fracture of the frame-work of the throat, and the blood which I saw gorging the different organs, made me consider that she had been killed either by strangulation or throttling, the effect of which would be to gorge all those organs

[sdreid]

Thanks Magpie - so they knew about it then.

[Nothing to see]

I watched within the last 2 years I'm sure, a docu where it was alleged the docu makers had an apron from Kelly I think it was that had blood on it.

Now, I've watched so many docus I get them confused so I'm sorry I can't be more specific. I keep thinking Eddowes but I think that's wishful thinking. The producers were going to do a DNA test on the blood stains but the tests didn't work or reveal anything. Like I said, I really can't remember it that well.

But if there is any physical evidence left from the murders that could be used for DNA, well that needs to be preserved.

With all the modernisation in the East End, was is left of Jack's haunts in Whitechapel and Spitalfields will probably be gone within 30 years.

[sdreid]

I remember seeing one where they looked at the so-called Eddowes shawl.

[Sister Hyde]

it's such a shame and so little things were preserved. despite the fact that they could process to DNA tests or just analyzing matters, did the police take samples of fluids and could they tell the fluids were? or was it always just by watching and touching the body that they did autopsies?

[sdreid]

To my knowledge, no fluids were taken. There really wasn't much they could do with them at the time other than test for poison and I don't believe they even did that. Authorities didn't seem to have any vision regarding future developments either.

[sdreid]

In about a dozen years, they made the leap to being able to distinguish human from animal blood.

[sdreid]

I suppose maybe we could get DNA from surviving lines of descent from both victims and suspects before they might die out. That is, in case we find a bloody knife sealed in the wall of some old London building someday.

[sdreid]

That's the only thing I can think of that could solve the case to the satisfaction of most.

[Hatchett]

Hi All,

I remember seeing a programme featuring a police forensic officer that had what reputedly was Eddowes' shawl. But as far as I remember it couldnt be completely authenticated.

I think if it was, or there were any other things possibly surving from any of the victims they would be so completely contaminated that it would be impossible to authenticate them from DNA.

Best wishes.

[sdreid]

I believe the shawl was highly suspect at best and I never really figured out why they thought JtRs DNA would be on it anyway.

[sdreid]

I don't even see a shawl listed among Eddowes' belongings.