Evidence of Recent Connexion

[Steven Russell]

As far as I am aware, none of the doctors in any of the cases reported finding evidence of recent sexual activity in any of the WM victims. I would be pleased to be corrected if this is wrong. Presumably we are talking about semen traces here.

Traditionally, this has been interpreted to mean that Jack did not have sex with his victims but achieved "release" through the mutilations (hence the need to find another victim after having been disturbed in Dutfield's Yard).

Now - we know that all of the canonical victims were either habitual or occasional prostitutes and it seems likely that some of them serviced more than one client on the same night that they were killed.

This, to me, throws up several questions:
1) Was it difficult for the doctors of the time to detect semen traces?
2) Did the ladies clean themselves up after each transaction?
3) Did they only offer services which were unlikely to cause semen to be transferred to their bodies?

I have not researched Victorian contraception methods but I wonder how prostitutes of that era avoided unwanted pregnancies. I would suggest that they kept vaginal penetration to the minimum. Could it be that Jack was turned on in the conventional way and then carried out his revolting deeds afterwards?

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Steven. Dr. Llewellyn, I believe it was, was struck by how 'clean' Polly Nichols' thighs were, and I've always taken this (along with her statement of making her doss three times over) to mean that she had been 'busy' earlier in the evening, had cleaned up, and was back out to get her doss. So while she had likely had recent connection, it was prior to her cleaning and going back out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

factor?

Hello Steven.

"I would suggest that they kept vaginal penetration to the minimum."

I think that is correct. Not sure, however, if that was a factor in the WCM.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Liz

Hello Tom.

"Dr. Llewellyn, I believe it was, was struck by how 'clean' Polly Nichols' thighs were, and I've always taken this (along with her statement of making her doss three times over) to mean that she had been 'busy' earlier in the evening, had cleaned up, and was back out to get her doss. So while she had likely had recent connection, it was prior to her cleaning and going back out. "

That's a sensible conjecture and seems correct. Do you think Liz did the same?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn, it's quite possible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

I have not researched Victorian contraception methods but I wonder how prostitutes of that era avoided unwanted pregnancies. I would suggest that they kept vaginal penetration to the minimum.

Not necessarily. Most common contraception method at that time was an inserted sponge. The French used lambskin condoms since at least the 17th century, but don't think Whitechapel prostitutes had access to such or that their clientele would have accepted such.

Could it be that Jack was turned on in the conventional way and then carried out his revolting deeds afterwards?

Hardly enough time for this plus, no trace. (Unless the Victorian doctors left this out of the reports, but then, why the mention of “clean thighs“?)


What's noticeable is that Nichols could not hold on to her money every time she had a “break“ on the evening of her death, while Stride apparently was more effective.

[Errata]

Not to be truly revolting, but in at least two cases the vaginal canal would have been so compromised after the mutilations that "conventional" intercourse would simply have resulted in penetration of the surrounding tissues. And if he was fine with that, there is no reason for him to confine his sexual stimulation to the vaginal canal. Ted Bundy used the severed rotting arm of a victim to masturbate, using the crook of the elbow to provide friction. So truly disgusting sexual behaviors certainly happen.

I don't think we can assume that he had no sexual contact with the victims. I think we can safely assume he had no vaginal intercourse with these women, but I cannot imagine that a doctor in Victorian England would check the throat wounds or the abdominal cavity for traces of semen. And it might actually answer a few questions about the nature of the throat slashes and the treatment of the intestines.

Despite the availability of contraceptive sponges, I don't think these women had the money to spend on them. And if sponges had been present in these women, in would have been noted in the autopsy. I think they were actually still illegal in 1888, so while it may not have seemed out of place to doctor performing an autopsy, it would have been evidence of illegal activity, which rates a mention in a report. And we certainly aren't past the point where men aren't outraged that women might not want to bear their children. So a certain amount of disgust would be expected if a sponge was present.

[Trevor Marriott]

Not to be truly revolting, but in at least two cases the vaginal canal would have been so compromised after the mutilations that "conventional" intercourse would simply have resulted in penetration of the surrounding tissues. And if he was fine with that, there is no reason for him to confine his sexual stimulation to the vaginal canal. Ted Bundy used the severed rotting arm of a victim to masturbate, using the crook of the elbow to provide friction. So truly disgusting sexual behaviors certainly happen.

I don't think we can assume that he had no sexual contact with the victims. I think we can safely assume he had no vaginal intercourse with these women, but I cannot imagine that a doctor in Victorian England would check the throat wounds or the abdominal cavity for traces of semen. And it might actually answer a few questions about the nature of the throat slashes and the treatment of the intestines.

Despite the availability of contraceptive sponges, I don't think these women had the money to spend on them. And if sponges had been present in these women, in would have been noted in the autopsy. I think they were actually still illegal in 1888, so while it may not have seemed out of place to doctor performing an autopsy, it would have been evidence of illegal activity, which rates a mention in a report. And we certainly aren't past the point where men aren't outraged that women might not want to bear their children. So a certain amount of disgust would be expected if a sponge was present.

Well the case is solved now the killer has been identified Spongebob

[Steven Russell]

What's noticeable is that Nichols could not hold on to her money every time she had a “break“ on the evening of her death, while Stride apparently was more effective.

I've always assumed that Polly spent her earnings on booze. So did she clean herself up after each transaction or only the one time before she met Jack? That's very interesting stuff about the sponges (I didn't know about that) so thanks for that information. Although none of the post-mortem exams mentions sponges.

Again, I wonder how good the doctors of the time were at spotting semen traces. I can't think how to put this more delicately but maybe Jack came in his trousers.

But it still seems odd to me that in no case was recent sexual activity noted.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[lynn cates]

hunting

Hello Steven.

"But it still seems odd to me that in no case was recent sexual activity noted."

Of course, in Polly and Annie's cases, they were looking for clients but perhaps not finding them.

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Perhaps Jack wasn't a sexual killer.

One point relevant to Kosminski : IF Kosminski was the killer, maybe we shouldn't expect any evidence of connection - he could simply have been out of fuel.

[Errata]

Of course, in Polly and Annie's cases, they were looking for clients but perhaps not finding them.

Cheers.
LC

Again, that applies to vaginal intercourse. Which is an act a good many men could get a home, while being "frenched" (oral sex) was not something they could get at home, and prostitutes made more money performing that act than standard intercourse. So they may have had several customers, none of whom were in a position of leaving evidence of it on the thighs.

Personally, i think they at least wiped down after every incidence of intercourse. Walking around with semen leaking slowly down your leg cannot possibly be comfortable, and it's an easy remedy to wipe off using an inner skirt.

Also, since these women would not have been aroused, and therefore would not have had the benefit of lubrication, they would incur any number of tiny tears in both the internal and external genital areas. And to be blunt, semen burns when in contact with those tiny tears. Not desperately painful, but enough the you would sort of scrub at it the way you scrub at a tiny cut when soap gets in it.

Semen bleaches too. True Story.

[mariab]

Spongebob talk

That's very interesting stuff about the sponges (I didn't know about that) so thanks for that information. Although none of the post-mortem exams mentions sponges. Again, I wonder how good the doctors of the time were at spotting semen traces. {...} But it still seems odd to me that in no case was recent sexual activity noted.

The sponge usage is corroborated by Jane Coram and Archaic, experts in Victorian clothing and accessories.
Since Victorian medicine was in capacity to conduct histologic examinations with the organs (per microscope) to establish the presence of alcohol/malt, there is no reason why they wouldn't have been able to establish the presence of semen as well. I suspect that the reason they didn't look for such is their Victorian mentality. It appears that the French acted quite differently pertaining to such. Recently I've read Alexandre Lacassagne's handwrittten notes on the Vacher case, and they're as explicit as it would be expected today.

Perhaps Jack wasn't a sexual killer.
One point relevant to Kosminski: IF Kosminski was the killer, maybe we shouldn't expect any evidence of connection - he could simply have been out of fuel.

Though clearly there was no time and intent for an actual sexual encounter, not even with MJK, a forensic psychologist would still call these crimes “sexual“, since their orientation/intent are such (investigatory and necro-sadist). The single Ripper-related crime featuring something ressembling actual sexual activity is Emma Smith.
The Kozminsky (and the Spongebob) commentary cracked me up.

[lynn cates]

skill sets

Hello Errata.

"Which is an act a good many men could get a home, while being "frenched" (oral sex) was not something they could get at home, and prostitutes made more money performing that act than standard intercourse. So they may have had several customers, none of whom were in a position of leaving evidence of it on the thighs."

This is part of an ongoing discussion. If there is good evidence that the "ladies of the East End" were noted in that regard, I'd love to see it.

Thus far, however, I've found none. Interesting thought, though.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

I believe I was the first one to mention sponge PLUS vinegar, in a previous post - from the horse´s mouth (if you ll excuse the expression). I was told about it by an old lady from the Victorian era, who said that prostitutes were not the only ones to use this method - her mother had also been in service and had told her of the "shocking" behaviour of the times - her ladies did not just dampen their muslin frocks so they their bodies would show through, they also used the sponge and vinegar method.

As for cleaning themselves up I remember a news report some years ago about a swedish woman giving birth to one black and one white twin (in all innocence) - it turned out that her husband had had sex with a prostitute in Denmark and had then come home to have sex with his wife with a little reminder of the previous customer on him, so I would say that they didn´t clean themselves much afterwards. It´s true, honest!

Regards,
C4