Evidence of Recent Connexion

[lynn cates]

scenarios

Hello Maria. No, for once no joke. I would like to clear up some differences on forensics involved with the Stride killing. I am thinking of:

1. Martin Fido's "between the gate and club wall."

2. Tom's "against the club wall just west of gate."

3. My "heading east towards gate."

(What is ADT?)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Oh OK, Lynn.
Profound apologies, but these days I've no time whatsoever to look up into the “mappology“ of Dutfields Yard, too busy with Schwartz, the WVC, Campbell/Rocker, and the Danish stuff, not to mention tons of bureaucracy plus my own work.
If you asked Tom?

(ADT is AdultDVDTalk. I was simply joking about your “double-ended“ post #43. Apologies.)

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Maria. Excellent suggestion. (Consulting Tom, I mean--not the adult stuff. Adult is one thing; superannuated, another.) I would like to do many possible scenarios in one fell swoop.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

superannuated

It's a really lame joke Lynn, but a non native English speaker could easily misunderstand “adult“ as the opposite of childrens' movies.
- I love childrens' movies.
- And I prefer adult.

Apologies for the silly joke.

[Abby Normal]

As far as I am aware, none of the doctors in any of the cases reported finding evidence of recent sexual activity in any of the WM victims. I would be pleased to be corrected if this is wrong. Presumably we are talking about semen traces here.

Traditionally, this has been interpreted to mean that Jack did not have sex with his victims but achieved "release" through the mutilations (hence the need to find another victim after having been disturbed in Dutfield's Yard).

Now - we know that all of the canonical victims were either habitual or occasional prostitutes and it seems likely that some of them serviced more than one client on the same night that they were killed.

This, to me, throws up several questions:
1) Was it difficult for the doctors of the time to detect semen traces?
2) Did the ladies clean themselves up after each transaction?
3) Did they only offer services which were unlikely to cause semen to be transferred to their bodies?

I have not researched Victorian contraception methods but I wonder how prostitutes of that era avoided unwanted pregnancies. I would suggest that they kept vaginal penetration to the minimum. Could it be that Jack was turned on in the conventional way and then carried out his revolting deeds afterwards?

Best wishes,
Steve.

Hi Steve
Interesting topic.

This, to me, throws up several questions:
1) Was it difficult for the doctors of the time to detect semen traces?
2) Did the ladies clean themselves up after each transaction?
3) Did they only offer services which were unlikely to cause semen to be transferred to their bodies?


1) probably
2)probably
3)probably not


Could it be that Jack was turned on in the conventional way and then carried out his revolting deeds afterwards?

He may have been sexually aroused while commiting the murders/mutilations but probably used the trophies afterwards while wanking. I dont think there was enough time at the murder scene for sexual activity with his victims alive or dead.


To various posters
Re: oral sex in Victorian times-Eventhough in Victorian times society may have made oral sex taboo, I am sure it was fairly common. Probably made it that much funner!

And no one has to neccessarily "learn" how/if to have oral sex-it will come naturally when in the throes of passion. heck even monkeys do it.

[lynn cates]

which century?

Hello Abby.

"Re: oral sex in Victorian times-Even though in Victorian times society may have made oral sex taboo, I am sure it was fairly common."

Why so sure? Are you extrapolating from the 21st C?

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

heck even monkeys do it.

[/QUOTE]


Sadly, I was brought up on David Attenborough..... ....(really ? that's interesting. That will come in handy for the pub quiz)

[Errata]

The popularity of any given sex act waxes and wanes in accordance to the times. All things are possible, and all things have been done with enthusiasm at some point in time or another. But there is a cycle, like in fashion, politics, art.. anything associated with culture.

For example, the popularity of anal sex has gone through any numbers of highs and lows. In the Victorian area it was popular, whether inspired by erotic literature or vice versa. It was also popular in 15th century Persia/Ottoman Empire. Possibly due to anatomical differences. It is also popular now (and very dangerous) amongst teenagers and young women who see it as a compromise between their partner not wanting to wear a condom, and concern about pregnancy.

The same holds true for oral sex. It is less a matter of whether the knowledge of such acts was out there (although a repressive atmosphere does affect that), and more a matter of whether or not it was considered disgusting or not. I think any woman's first experience with it is less than ideal, which often affects their willingness to try it again. There is also a certain reaction most women have when they first learn of such an act, which is akin to "In my MOUTH? Are you INSANE?". This is also a time of rampant venereal disease, and not to be gross, but as men typically have visible symptoms of disease, it may have been about as desirable to a woman as the thought of eating a plate of raw rotten meat. In the sixties, it was reported that just 46% (48% maybe?) of women had performed fellatio, and predictably after the movie Deep Throat came out, those numbers shot way up. I think today Americans run in the 80ish% range. So it is far more popular today that even 50 years ago.

All that being said, I still think the answer to the riddle is that these women wiped themselves down after each client. Probably not for any hygienic reason, but because it was damned uncomfortable. But the possibility exists that these women who were certainly not high end would offer the service as a way of making a little bit extra money.

[Robert]

Looks like David had a lucky escape when he was romping with the gorillas.

[Errata]

Sadly, I was brought up on David Attenborough..... ....(really ? that's interesting. That will come in handy for the pub quiz)[/QUOTE]

I have a deep and abiding love.. nay passion... for David Attenborough. He is one of my Dinner Party guests.

[Abby Normal]

The popularity of any given sex act waxes and wanes in accordance to the times. All things are possible, and all things have been done with enthusiasm at some point in time or another. But there is a cycle, like in fashion, politics, art.. anything associated with culture.

For example, the popularity of anal sex has gone through any numbers of highs and lows. In the Victorian area it was popular, whether inspired by erotic literature or vice versa. It was also popular in 15th century Persia/Ottoman Empire. Possibly due to anatomical differences. It is also popular now (and very dangerous) amongst teenagers and young women who see it as a compromise between their partner not wanting to wear a condom, and concern about pregnancy.

The same holds true for oral sex. It is less a matter of whether the knowledge of such acts was out there (although a repressive atmosphere does affect that), and more a matter of whether or not it was considered disgusting or not. I think any woman's first experience with it is less than ideal, which often affects their willingness to try it again. There is also a certain reaction most women have when they first learn of such an act, which is akin to "In my MOUTH? Are you INSANE?". This is also a time of rampant venereal disease, and not to be gross, but as men typically have visible symptoms of disease, it may have been about as desirable to a woman as the thought of eating a plate of raw rotten meat. In the sixties, it was reported that just 46% (48% maybe?) of women had performed fellatio, and predictably after the movie Deep Throat came out, those numbers shot way up. I think today Americans run in the 80ish% range. So it is far more popular today that even 50 years ago.

All that being said, I still think the answer to the riddle is that these women wiped themselves down after each client. Probably not for any hygienic reason, but because it was damned uncomfortable. But the possibility exists that these women who were certainly not high end would offer the service as a way of making a little bit extra money.

Hi Errata

For example, the popularity of anal sex has gone through any numbers of highs and lows. In the Victorian area it was popular, whether inspired by erotic literature or vice versa.

So anal sex was popular in the Victorian era but oral sex was not? Thats wacky.

It is less a matter of whether the knowledge of such acts was out there (although a repressive atmosphere does affect that), and more a matter of whether or not it was considered disgusting or not. I think any woman's first experience with it is less than ideal, which often affects their willingness to try it again. There is also a certain reaction most women have when they first learn of such an act, which is akin to "In my MOUTH? Are you INSANE?".

As i said before it does not really matter what society says about what is taboo or not-people will do it if they like it (or even if they dont). And sure the first time one hears about sex and sex acts before being that experienced with it they're initial reaction might be that its gross. But come on victorian couples-sexually attracted and in love whatever while in the heat of passion are either A) not going to do it because society says its wrong or B) evryone wont do it because everyone think its gross is very unrealistic IMHO. Like I said before, something as natural as oral sex, whatever the age is going to be fairly common-is it not a desire felt by most couples mutually in the heat of the moment (or have I just been really lucky). People might not admit to for whatever reason- but come on.

Actually more pertinant to this thread would be was it employed by prostitutes of the time for whatever reason. i dont know the answer to this but maybe someone does.

[Abby Normal]

Sadly, I was brought up on David Attenborough..... ....(really ? that's interesting. That will come in handy for the pub quiz)

I have a deep and abiding love.. nay passion... for David Attenborough. He is one of my Dinner Party guests.[/QUOTE]

Hi again

for David Attenborough. He is one of my Dinner Party guests.[/QUOTE]

You hang out with David Attenborough?

[mariab]

This thread gave me visions of RICHARD Attenborough engaging in sexual play with monkeys...err... dinosaurs?

Plus this thread is getting circular. Most plausibly the Victorians (esp. the high and lower classes) engaged in all kinds of physically possible sex, not unlike us today. Just read Fanny Hill (not Mortimer!), The romance of lust (from the 1870s), My secret life, etc. etc..

[Rubyretro]

I have a deep and abiding love.. nay passion... for David Attenborough. He is one of my Dinner Party guests.

[/QUOTE]

But is he prepared for what you've learned from the monkeys ?

[Rubyretro]

Seriously -I think that they just all did whatever they were going to do at the time ...but because they were Victorian they were made to feel terribly terribly guilty about it (by other people who were either doing it too, or who were a bit disappointed that they weren't).