Evidence of Recent Connexion

[lynn cates]

gestation

Hello C4. that story reminds me of several stories about sailors returning home after an eleven or twelve month hiatus only to discover they are dads.

Who knows all the ins and outs (oops, poor choice of words?) regarding human gestation?

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Errata;200040][QUOTE]Again, that applies to vaginal intercourse. Which is an act a good many men could get a home, while being "frenched" (oral sex) was not something they could get at home[/QUOTE

I'm sorry, Errata -I don't believe you.

Wives at the time risked death everytime that they fell pregnant, and men
(being primarily responsible for financing the family) risked extra worries and pressure on their general lives by having an extra mouth to feed.

I just can't think ( since I don't believe that people at such a short distance from us in historical terms were that much different from us), that they couldn't have worked out for themselves that 'frenching' (I'm laughing because I live in France) was mutually beneficial.

I'm quite sure that the wives would have wanted to avoid their blokes having to resort to prostitutes (and not only to economise the 'Housekeeping').

Similarily, my logic tells me that Steven Russel's 'Doctors' were men (at least in the vast majority -someone will be bound to give me an exception), and as such the concept of sneaking a quiet 'wank' was not alien to them...in which case they would have been eagle eyed in spotting semen traces on clothing.

Maria -The Channel being short and well plied (no pun intended), I'm certain that the French wouldn't have ever kept their secrets to themselves.

[curious4]

Hello C4. that story reminds me of several stories about sailors returning home after an eleven or twelve month hiatus only to discover they are dads.

Who knows all the ins and outs (oops, poor choice of words?) regarding human gestation?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes it does have the flavour of an urban myth, doesn´t it. But, if they came from a small isolated community of blue-eyed, blond swedes, where everyone knew everyone else, as is still often the case in Sweden, if it could be proved that the wife never left home and that there were no casual passers-by, and if they lived in the far south, near to Denmark, then perhaps. This was twenty to thirty years ago, so no dna. It was really believed to have happened. Personally, I think there might have been a more colourful ancestry in the family somewhere way back. And if not true - served him right!

Cheers,
C4

[Errata]

Hello Errata.

This is part of an ongoing discussion. If there is good evidence that the "ladies of the East End" were noted in that regard, I'd love to see it.

Thus far, however, I've found none. Interesting thought, though.

Cheers.
LC

This post applies to Ruby as well, It just seemed better to combine it.

I have no evidence whatsoever of the East End Unfortunates performing oral sex on customers. There is the occasional anecdotal evidence of this service being available in brothels, oddly enough at a higher price than conventional intercourse. Personally I think it is a reflection of it being considered kinky and outre, but that's just me. And I'm afraid I can't cite any sources right now, since these things originally came up in a very odd research project on the repeated rises and falls of feminism for school about 10 years ago. If I can find the paper, I can cite the sources. I'll look.

Made for some damned uncomfortable reading while sitting across the table from my adviser, a Baptist minister.

I honestly do not believe that the average wife of any station would have been willing to perform oral sex on their husband, despite the advantages. The problem with Victorian times is Victorian morality. Most women did not even remove all of their clothing to engage in sex. And there would certainly be a paradox in introducing oral sex into a marriage. At the time, it was not a common practice (sex being solely for the production of offspring according to the morals of the day) and a spouse would have a tough time explaining where exactly he or she got the information on such an act. A wife could not introduce the subject, as her husband would think she picked it up from another man, and a husband could hardly tell his wife that a hooker did this great thing and she should do it too.

And certainly in the higher stations there was a certain expectation that men would would have other sexual partners, whether it be a mistress, a married woman of similar station, or a prostitute. As best I can tell, wives became upset if their husband fell in love with another woman, had an illegitimate child, or spent an undue amount of money of the other woman. So while fidelity was as prized as it is today, equally today's "boys will be boys" attitude still reigned. A few women even expressed relief in their diaries when their husbands found a mistress, so that they would be released from overly frequent and onerous marital duties.

Does any of this mean that these women offered this service? Not a bit. I realized I sounded certain in my previous posts, and I am by no means certain. It's a possibility. Personally I think they didn't, as there is no mention of staining on the knees of the skirts, which their should be if they did in fact perform oral sex on customers. I do think that they cleaned themselves up after each customer. Catherine Eddowes was carrying squares of cloth which may have been for just such a purpose. And while I am sure that doctors could spot semen stains on clothing, I'm by no means convinced they could spot stains in an area soaked in blood.

By the by curious: Sperm don't live long enough outside the body for that to be possible.

[lynn cates]

improper behaviour

Hello C4. I completely agree. Someone zigged when s/he should have zagged.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

go west young man

Hello Errata. I completely agree. If one were looking for THAT, one might try the high priced brothels of West London.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I doubt that oral sex was a new concept in Victorian Whitechapel.

Apparently, Cleopatra was famous for her blow jobs. The Greeks called her Meriochane, or "she who gapes wide for 10,000 men".

Also, according to legend, Osiris, cut into pieces by his brother and thrown into a river, was reassembled by his sister, Isis, who had to replace his one missing part with a clay version. She then blew life back into him via his new earthenware member.

I can imagine that working.

Regards,

Simon

[Robert]

Some years ago a shrewd poster called Joan O'Liari suggested that Stride's cachous might have been to ameliorate the after-effects of oral sex, and that the stains on one of her hankies might not have been fruit stains.

Just thought I'd toss that in - I mean -

[Rubyretro]

Stride's cachous might have been to ameliorate the after-effects of oral sex

,

I've always thought that's what the cachous were for -and given the lack of bathrooms for working men, she surely needed them.

Errata -I think that double standards must have abounded. Certainly Helena Wojtczak's well researched book on Women Of Victorian Sussex paints a less stereotypical picture.

[mariab]

Maria -The Channel being short and well plied (no pun intended), I'm certain that the French wouldn't have ever kept their secrets to themselves.

Absolutely. I'm just sayin', the French have had documentedly a more open attitude about it, and they've always ended up with a bad reputation. ;-)

Simon Wood is quite right. Concerning the technicalities of sexuality, there's been nothing new under the sun since the dawn of times.
If one has a look inside the engravings by Paul Avril in the 1890s, or any such literary works such as Gustave Flaubert's Salambô, Jules Michelet's Madame, even novels from the 18th century, such as the Abbé Prévost's Manon Lescaut (published in 1731), John Cleland's Fanny Hill (first published in 1748), Stendhal's Le rouge et le noir {The Red and the Black} (published in 1830), it's all in there to see: oral, anal, gay, lesbian, you name it. Without even mentioning the hardcore stuff, such as Sade, H. S. Ashbee, My secret life, etc..
Most plausibly the Victorians appear to have been more “experimental“ in the high and low classes rather than in the middle classes. Still, I'm reminded that Freud hesitated to publish his first book, then turned it into a self-censored second edition due to the fact that he was apalled and not keen in reporting about the overwhelming statistics of child abuse in the “best families“ of Vienna in the 1890s.

[lynn cates]

before or after

Hello Robert. Yes, I've heard that. But why place then in hand BEFORE the fact?

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Hi Lynn

Maybe Joan was suggesting that she was killed after performing the oral - either by her client or by another man who came along.

[lynn cates]

body placement

Hello Robert. But then the body placement is all wrong.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Victorians

Hello Simon. Oral sex amongst the Victorians? I find that difficult to swallow.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

Very droll.

Victorian husbands were told that returning the favour would lead to them contracting cancer and also result in the death of their wife.

Regards,

Simon