Evidence of Recent Connexion

[Robert]

Hi Lynn

I'm only about 60-40 on Stride being a JTR victim anyway, so I don't worry too much about the Stride murder. I'm pretty sure BS wasn't the killer, and I'm pretty sure her throat wasn't cut while she was performing the oral : too risky!

[lynn cates]

quid pro quo

Hello Simon. My understanding is that IF a favour is returned it must be in kind--not just a lick and a promise.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

'Pon my word.

Hello Robert. JTR nothing. Will you make a pun or no?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Sordid, sleazy and salacious...

Wow,

There's no where we won't go is there boys and girls? Our grandmother's would be horrified...........provided they weren't Whitechapel street walkers...

There seems little agreement on what services our ladies of the night provided and even less evidence of such...

While I doubt the solution to the case rests on this question, it does seem relevant in determining time frames, positions, sanitary devices, Jack's pathology etc.

I'm not sure literature can answer the question and I doubt police reports said things like "kneeling down blowing someone" on its reports. So where does that leave us?

Serious research must be undertaken and no I'm not suggesting we hit the streets for an Historical comparison but the answer must exist somewhere ..and barring time machines ....uh.........Surely someone has ideas...



Greg

[tji]

Serious research must be undertaken and no I'm not suggesting we hit the streets for an Historical comparison but the answer must exist somewhere ..and barring time machines ....uh.........Surely someone has ideas...

Hi Greg

I think the response 'i'm not touching that' is quite fitting here....

Tj

[Errata]

All I'm saying is, it is possible for Jack to have satisfied himself sexually without availing himself of the usual orifice. Or even the unusual ones.

As far as determining what was on offer at the time... We know that the Kama Sutra was considered a slightly risque acquisition for a man of means. And there have been stories of men bringing a copy to their clubs to show off, but always securely wrapped. We also know that the mere possession of literature on birth control by a woman was illegal. Which is less a tale of a double standards than it is a tale of what women were exposed to vs. what men were exposed to. The whole "Lie back and think of England" mentality.

(There is a hilarious and probably completely false story about a lecture given by Margaret Sanger (the founder of Planned Parenthood) in the 40s with a little old lady in attendance who fainted dead away at the description of how a diaphragm works. When she came around people asked her why she came to the lecture if she was morally opposed to birth control. She replied that she was fine with birth control but that "If I had known what my husband was doing down there all these years and with what I would have poisoned his coffee!")

Fortunately the repressed Victorians did come out with quite a bit of pornographic literature. I've never actually read The Lustful Turk, but I know that it is the sort of standard male rape fantasy, where rape sexually awakens a virgin who then craves constant sexual attention, the usual tripe, but mostly featuring anal sex (which was then and is now practiced as a form of birth control). I think his bits end up pickled in a jar. But I would imagine that anyone who read these... "classics" would find that they contain a pretty good summation of what men wanted. Mostly sex acts that would be considered unusual but not perverse. I can't imagine two men having sex would appear in these novels as anything other than an example of immorality, an object of disgust. Those books don't sell. So If someone wants to know what the brothels offered, that's where I would start.

I've also been looking for the old Victorian birth control pamphlets for ages and can't find them. I know Annie Besant's "Laws of Population" is still around somewhere. But those would be the most frank sexual instruction women were ever given, so if I ever find them, I could say what sex acts were considered common knowledge amongst women.

[Tom_Wescott]

For whatever it's worth

Hi all,

Based on the position of the body as found by Diemshitz and co. (pre-Johnston), Stride had to have been standing face against the wall of the club when she was laid to the ground, as her bent knees were closer to the wall than her head.

As for the cachous, if these were not purchased by her, I feel they were likely given to her by the man seen with her by Best & Gardner, who was kissing her. Marshall's man's a possibility, but he states the man was kissing on Liz, not that they were kissing each other on the mouth. Cachous were typically purchased by men who smoked harsher tobaccos.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rubyretro]

The whole "Lie back and think of England" mentality.

I know what you're saying Errata but still........if you think of the age of the planet, and the tiny length of time that the human race has existed, the Victorian era is just a few minutes back. My own grand-parents were born in the 19th century. These people were just like us.

Society might have dictated a hypocritical stance on sex education, and what women were supposed to do and not do, but I bet you anything you like
that your average housewife would have soon got some tips from a garrulous
knowing neighbour...given the high rate of mortality in childbirth, there were
some strong motivation not to fall pregnant, and given the fact that women couldn't easily work to support themselves, I can't believe that they wouldn't also have been highly motivated to keep their husbands happy.

Nor do I believe that they were all 'Laying back and thinking of England'.
Given the many years that Queen Victoria wore black after the death of Prince Albert, and had the Albert Hall built to his memory, and all those children popping out long after duty was done although she outranked him and could easily refuse to sleep with him....why my logic tells me that
'England' was probably the last thing Victoria had on her mind when laying back. And if it was good enough for the Queen..

Infact, you have only to look at photos of Queen Victoria to see that she must have been a 'right little go-er'...!

[kensei]

As I was perusing this whole lively discussion it brought to mind some very dark humor from Alan Moore's graphic novel (not the movie) "From Hell," which is loaded with graphic sex scenes. A client of Mary Kelly's demands his full money's worth and makes her "go all the way," after which she muses to her friends (the rest of the C5) that it is time for her "to pray for blood." Double meaning there, of course. Yikes.

[lynn cates]

others

Hello Errata.

"All I'm saying is, it is possible for Jack to have satisfied himself sexually without availing himself of the usual orifice. Or even the unusual ones."

Indeed. But is it not generally supposed that the latter 3 ladies had other clients? What of them?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

position

Hello Tom. In the position you describe, I take it Liz was NOT behind the northern segment of gate?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Based on the position of the body as found by Diemshitz and co. (pre-Johnston), Stride had to have been standing face against the wall of the club when she was laid to the ground, as her bent knees were closer to the wall than her head.

Makes sense. Standing face against the wall could indicate that they were supposedly preparing for intercourse, but since she held her cachous in her hand, the most plausible possibility is that they were still talking and that he simply turned her around and simultaneously attacked her. With her bad leg, it would have been super easy to control her physically.
I'm always saying, the fact that Stride was an interrupted crime offers important evidence into the Ripper's MO, evidence NOT available in the other C5 (such as the cachous and the position in which Stride was found), but then again, there are the folks who, against all evidence, still insist in considering Stride a domestic, getting not a little bit aggressive and nasty while at that. At least Robert Linford stays cool. ;-)

Cachous were typically purchased by men who smoked harsher tobaccos.

The most plausible possibility (since we have witnesses claiming that kissing took place) is that Stride bought the cachous wishing to remedy her bad breath due to her rotting teeth.


To Kensei:
Is Alan Moore's graphic novel From Hell worth looking at? Is it done by a good penciller /inker/collorist? Does it insist a lot on Abberline “chasing the dragon“ and stuff? (Ugh.)

I've also been looking for the old Victorian birth control pamphlets for ages and can't find them.

I'm under the impression that poster Archaic has stuff like that.

Infact, you have only to look at photos of Queen Victoria to see that she must have been a 'right little go-er'...!

Not sure what you mean, but Queen Victoria allegedly had a lover after Albert's death. I thought it was a known fact.

[lynn cates]

warehouse

Hello Maria, Tom. Why not email me with some suggestions concerning Liz and her position?

I have a student who thinks he may obtain access to a company warehouse where I could reproduce some of the forensic considerations and film them.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

[

Not sure what you mean, but Queen Victoria allegedly had a lover after Albert's death. I thought it was a known fact.

It was a joke -you know Maria -given those 'I am not amused' photos.

I've always imagined that the gossip surrounding the friendship with John Brown was just that -gossip.

[mariab]

I've always imagined that the gossip surrounding the friendship with John Brown was just that -gossip.

Honestly, no clue.

Lynn, I really hope you're joking. Otherwise you're obviously in the wrong forum. Try ADT.com?
By the by, the AFs in N.Y. are done since days, payment is being processed, and I hope to hear from them later today and that they ship you the printouts tomorrow.