Special Branch Register and Ledger-decison Notice

[lynn cates]

O'Brien

Hello All. Regarding O'Brien: there was an Edward O'Brien involved in the Phoenix Park murders. But he was serving a sentence until 1891.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Thank you so much for the information, Grave Maurice. I just caught wind of the name Randolph Churchill on the JTRForums. It looks like this is a suspect from the D'Ostonian era? I'll read the old casebook thread you've attached later tonight.
Thank you.

And to Lynn:
I'll read your fascinating new thread pertaining to Phoenix Park ASAP.

[Phil Carter]

...It may be worth remembering too that one O'Brien' of that time ,a Matthew O'Brien [aka John Sinclair ,Mr Roberts,Mr Wilson] was a double agent and caused Jenkinson and Spencer great angst when he blackmailed them......but there were several other "O'Briens' connected with both the Fenian movement , the Land league and the wider political scene.
Norma

my emphasis

Hello Norma,

Interesting here is the name Wilson cropping up in connection with the name O'Brien.

In the ledgers.. "Jack the Ripper- name given to Wilson at Bushmills"

Just an observation.

best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

Is Bushmills a prison? Apologies for my ignorance, again.

[Phil Carter]

Is Bushmills a prison? Apologies for my ignorance, again.

Hello Maria,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmills

It is a small village in the very north of Northern Ireland, famous for it's whisky.
It is a 15 minute walk from the Giant's Causeway.

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Maria,

I think you have just insulted Rob.

Yes, I'm referring to Randolph, however it may be a different R Churchill. The date of this report will make interesting reading if it was about Randy.

Bushmills is a huge Whiskey distillary in Ireland. Not sure if they had warehouse/bars in London during that period, I assume they did.

Whilst I accept Phils valid points I will point out the O'Brien report is contemporary. Surely this is exactly the reason Trevor persued this cause, new lines.

Monty

[mariab]

Many thanks to Monty and Phil Carter for taking care of my ignorant questions.

I think you have just insulted Rob.

Sweet.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Maria,

Indeed, I believe Neil to be correct here when he says

... I will point out the O'Brien report is contemporary. Surely this is exactly the reason Trevor persued this cause, new lines.

We have these entries..

Jack the Ripper...The name given to Wilson at Bushmills,
Littlechild............Suspect O'Brien and the Whitechapel Murders
R Churchill......... Perpetrator of the Whitechapel murders

All contemporary entries.

As Neil also points out, the initial and indeed the easiest conclusion would be to jump at Lord Randolph Churchill being the reference to which the entry refers.. but we don't know that for certain.

That goes for a Wilson at Bushmills, and the O'Brien name as Norma points out too.

All new leads.

To my mind that leaves one the opportunity to precipitate research as far as possible on these contemporary names, a la McGrath.

From my understanding, the names were written in alphabetically, and not chronologically. The registers, with all 30,000 odd entries were an overview of the files that Special Branch had, or a reference system to the files, or even an index listing if you prefer.
The date of entry is not recorded in the ledgers, nor is there a date referral in each case. But the actual ledgers themselves encompass a time period.
An enormous amount of time must have been used by Littlechild, Anderson, Monro et al putting them together.


best wishes

Phil

[lynn cates]

O'Brien, take 2

Hello All. perhaps this O'Brien? This, I think, is William O'Brien. I will dig out another reference later.

(Snippet from "The Echo" November 23, 1887.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

William O'Brien

Hello All. Here is the reference to William O'Brien.

("The Guardian" same date as above.)

Cheers.
LC

"William O'Brien's life was dear to every Irishman, except the
coercionists but dear as his life was to the people of Ireland, it
ought to be dearer to Balfour. God help Balfour, soul and body, if
anything happened to William O'Brien. (Loud cheers.) Without
becoming irreverent, he would say that the curse of God would
speedily descend on Balfour's head, and the fate of Castlereagb,
who cut his own throat, would be nothing to the fate that would
occur to Balfour. They said the wish was father to the thought,
and he himself pleaded guilty to the wish if anything happened to
William O'Brien."
The city of Limerick was last week proclaimed under the
four sections of the Crimes Act which related to preliminary
inquiries, the summary jurisdiction Of resident magistrates,
special juries, and removal of trials. This step has been taken
with the view of dealing with speakers who incite the people to
break the law, rather than with other forms of crime, from
which the district is at present very free.
Mr. Davitt, who was last week at Limerick raising money for
a Celtic cross in memory of the " Manchester martyrs," insisted
that Mr. O'Brien, having made a heroic protest against being
treated as a common felon, should not risk his life by refusing
whatever might be necessary in the way of food and clothing.
He should, he said, rest satisfied with doing all a man of honour
and principle was called on to do, without sacrificing his life to
gratify Mr. Balfour's mean and cowardly desire for' vengeance.
At this meeting Mr. Davitt gave some account of the form of
Home Rule which he desired. "It was," he said—
" The Irish Nationalists, and not English parties, who should
formulate a Constitution which had to undo the evil effects of
English misgovernment in Ireland. The scheme of a single Chamber
with two orders and with separate voting power which was contained
in Mr. Gladstone's Home Rule Bill was unsatisfactory and unworkable.
The retention of Irish members in an English Parliament
when Irish questions were not discussed there would be building up
materials for future obstruction with a vengeance. A dual order,
such as was proposed in Mr. Gladstone's Bill, would only ensure perpetual
obstruction and prolong the contest with the class of
ascendancy, and he sincerely hoped that this part of the Bill was as
dead as the system of land purchase which marked with failure its
twin measure of Home Rule. It would be impossible to safeguard
the rights of the minority without violating the rights of constitutional
government; but there was not a Catholic or Nationalist in
Ireland who would not, nevertheless, give the Protestants the fullest
representation their numbers entitled them to. In a legislature of
300 members by a system of scrutin de liste there would be seventy-five
members to represent them."
On Sunday Mr. Davitt spoke at a meeting, at Stepaside, a few
miles from Dublin. He professed to feel great confidence in
the progress of the movement for Home Rule ; but the effect of
the Crimes Act and the apathy of the farmers were evidently
troubling him. Referring to the doings of Messrs. Pyne, Cox,
and Gilhooly, he said he did not think a hide-and-seek policy
was very dignified. If some were inclined to give the police a
run for it through the country, the Irish people would not misinterpret
their meaning. He was, however, anxious that the
people of Great Britain, America, and Europe should learn that
the Nationalists, instead of running away from coercion, would
willingly meet any consequences that they might incur from
their love of liberty.
Mr. Pyne, who has taken refuge in the old tower of Lisfarny
Castle to prevent the execution of the warrant for his arrest,
was on Sunday visited by several National League contingents,
headed by bands. He was let down by a rope from a height of
80ft. to within about 15ft. of the ground, and listened to
addresses read to him. After expressing his determination to
offer the utmost resistance to the police he was hauled up again.
It is said that the Crown does not intend proceeding in the
case against the Lord Mayor for publishing reports of meetings
of suppressed branches of the League, which was remitted by
the superior court to the magistrates, as an entry on the record
of the police-court that the case was " dismissed," would raise
serious if not fatal obstacles to its further prosecution. Fresh
proceedings, however, will be instituted, not only against the
Nation, but against other papers that are offending in a similar
way.
Mr. Henry Doughty, who calls himself the London working
men's delegate to Ireland, was on Friday last sentenced to a
month's imprisonment for inciting people to adopt the Plan of
Campaign and to join the League in a proclaimed district.
Mr. Doughty on hearing the sentence rose, and, waving his hat
in the air, shouted " God save Ireland." The cry was taken up
by the people in court, a number of soldiers belonging to the
Leinster regiment being especially demonstrative. The magistrate
immediately sentenced a countryman who was arrested in
the act of observing for O'Brien to a week's imprisonment, and
the tumult subsided. Mr. Doughty was subsequently removed
to the gaol at Limerick, care being taken to prevent anything
like a disturbance on the way."

[Chris]

As is known during the appeal process the Metropolitan Police provided me with the details of two entries appertaining to The Whitechapel Murders from the registers which I had identified by viewing the registers in their now redacted form.

The specific entries referred to were as follows...-

Under a specific entry titled “Jack the Ripper” the entry reads “The name given to Wilson at Bushmills

Under a second entry relating to a file submitted by “Chief Inspector Littlechild” the entry reads “Suspect O`Brien & the Whitechapel Murders”

In addition I obtained from a confidential source details of another entry which is purported to be in the register this entry reads “R Churchill- Perpetrator of the Whitechapel Murders”

Thank you for posting this interesting information.

There's one thing I'm not clear about. When you say that you had identified the first two of these by looking at the redacted documents, does that mean that you've searched the whole register and that these (and presumably the Magrath entry that we already know about from Clutterbuck's thesis) were the only entries that could be identified as referring to the Whitechapel Murders?

If so, do you have any idea why the "Churchill" entry wasn't apparent? If not, does that mean that part of the (redacted) register has still to be searched for references to the case?

[mariab]

2 great finds, Lynn, and both with a reference to Mr. Doughty!

Pertaining to the R. Churchill entry not being “apparent“ anymore in the ledgers (does this mean that it's been redacted?), could this be explained by the fact that it might refer to W. Churchill's father? Or that it might have been understood as referring to him?

To Phil Carter:
Call me slow, but the entry “Jack the Ripper...The name given to Wilson at Bushmills“ I really don't understand. Can it refer to a nickname spotted by someone called Wilson having simply resided in Bushmills??

From the single page of the SB ledgers I've seen (a page apparently available to everyone in Ripperology), it's clear that the ledgers are an alphabetically, not chronologically organized list. Still, I'm sure it's possible to figure out the time-frame the ledgers cover (if it hasn't been done already) through the cases featured in them.

[Chris]

Just one thought about the Bushmills entry. I'm not sure how to interpret it (and I'm not actually sure how others are interpreting it) but I wonder if - rather than being directly related to the Whitechapel Murders - it is noting that someone named Wilson at Bushmills was known by the nickname "Jack the Ripper." Judging from newspaper reports, the phrase was applied metaphorically quite early on to unusually violent people. (It was also a popular name for racehorses and greyhounds, which I thought was a bit strange until it struck me that Jack the Ripper was never caught...)

[Chris]

From the single page of the SB ledgers I've seen (a page apparently available to everyone in Ripperology), it's clear that the ledgers are an alphabetically, not chronologically organized list. Still, I'm sure it's possible to figure out the time-frame the ledgers cover (if it hasn't been done already) through the cases featured in them.

As discussed before, according to Clutterbuck the overall arrangement is alphabetical, with five subsections (A, E, I, O, U) for each letter of the alphabet. Within those subsections I assume it's chronological.

Clutterbuck speaks of estimating dates "by taking an archaeological approach to what entries lie before or after a dated [i.e. datable?] entry." I can see that would be feasible with access to all the data, but it would be an awful lot harder using the redacted version from which all personal names have been edited out.

[Phil Carter]

(It was also a popular name for racehorses and greyhounds, which I thought was a bit strange until it struck me that Jack the Ripper was never caught...)

Hello Chris,

That's amusing..and clever... "Gone with the Wind"- like

No wonder I can't find a racehorse named Kray.

best wishes