The writing - a name?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi J&J,

I agree to some extent, but we can also infer much by his choice of victims and killing grounds. The average man is not comfortable soliciting prostitutes, but our Jack was, which means he had become comfortable soliciting them before he began killing them. I think it's reasonable also to assume he was comfortable with the environment of the East End. He felt his knowledge of the area, its layout, people, police, etc. would allow him an edge, and apparently it did.
The idea that the Ripper did not write the graffiti took hold as Kosminski grew in popularity as a suspect. Many assumed he'd be illiterate, or not be able to write in English (not true), or figured he'd know how to spell 'Jew' since he was one (a reasonable argument). However, unless you favor Kosminski or a suspect like him, there's really not a lot of reason for supposing the graffiti was anything less than a message from the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DaveMc]

Those are valid points. I'm not sure about the not part of his M.O though. How can anybody be sure of his M.O - definite about it. He could have been lurking at the other murders for all we know. I'll post again later - at school, tiny bit busy.

Please forgive me.
I'm trying not to rehash my opinion out of respect for Tom.
We've made our points.

The M.O. is from the other murders where he did not linger in the area (as far as we know) and he didn't leave any messages on the walls. Nor did he make leave any indications referring to the Jewish community.

Yes. He "could have" done many things.
But without evidence from one of the other murders, it's only guesswork.

[DaveMc]

The piece of apron and the graffito have nothing to do with his MO.
What is sure is that he cut a piece of Kate's apron and left the scene with it.
Why ?

Amitiés,
David

Perhaps I will have to rehash it.

How is it sure that a citizen did not move the piece?
There is time and motive to do so.

[Tom_Wescott]

Dave,

Why should the Ripper leave messages at every murder if the message he left pertained only to the murders that night? And what indications do you have that someone else 'moved' the apron? None. We work with what we know, and that is:

* The apron and graffiti, according to PC Long, were left there at the same time, and this was following the Eddowes murder.
* The message is in no way blatantly anti-Semetic OR pro-Semitic, and only makes sense in reference to the murders.
* There apparently was not much if any other graffiti on the street.
* The inhabitants of the building did not recall the graffiti having been present at a time prior to the murder.
* The investigating officials, who had a better understanding of the people, the place, and the times than we will ever have, held a majority view that the graffiti was written by the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

Perhaps I will have to rehash it.

How is it sure that a citizen did not move the piece?
There is time and motive to do so.

A citizen ?
Cutting a piece of Kate's apron at the crime scene ?
How ? Why ? When ?

Amitiés,
David

[Tom_Wescott]

He meant that the Ripper could have dropped the apron piece and it could have been moved by someone else to where it was found under the graffiti. Technically, this is not possible, but there's absolutely no reason to suppose this was the case.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

I see...
Thanks Tom.

I remember a dog having been suggested, but a "citizen" was something brand new.

Candid me...

Amitiés,
David

[DaveMc]

Hi J&J,

The idea that the Ripper did not write the graffiti took hold as Kosminski grew in popularity as a suspect.

Tom Wescott

I didn't mean to add any fuel to that fire, Tom.

I almost feel sorry for my view.

I have my own doubts about Kosminski.

[DaveMc]

Dave,

Why should the Ripper leave messages at every murder if the message he left pertained only to the murders that night? And what indications do you have that someone else 'moved' the apron? None. We work with what we know, and that is:

* The apron and graffiti, according to PC Long, were left there at the same time, and this was following the Eddowes murder.
* The message is in no way blatantly anti-Semetic OR pro-Semitic, and only makes sense in reference to the murders.
* There apparently was not much if any other graffiti on the street.
* The inhabitants of the building did not recall the graffiti having been present at a time prior to the murder.
* The investigating officials, who had a better understanding of the people, the place, and the times than we will ever have, held a majority view that the graffiti was written by the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

The end reasoning for me here, Tom is that there were at least two methods and opportunities for the apron piece to make it's way to Goulston Street.
So it comes down to measuring the motives and what is to gain by it.

Ultimately, the measure of anything having to do with the case is valued by what makes the most sense.
Angry citizen makes the most sense to me.

I'm unaware of any statement by an official that they felt the killer had left the message. I've only found that it was evidence.
Is there something you can lead me to on that?

[JacknJill]

Nor did he make leave any indications referring to the Jewish community.

Yes. He "could have" done many things.
But without evidence from one of the other murders, it's only guesswork.

This sort of brings back to point that I originally made this thread for - the word Juwes and the theory from my class that it was actually meant to mean something other than Jew. Lol. Back to square one.

And yes, that was basically what I was trying to say before. About no evidence pointing to what he did, so therefore wouldn't alot of what has been figured out as his M.O and whatnot have to be alot of just that - guesswork?

[DaveMc]

A citizen ?
Cutting a piece of Kate's apron at the crime scene ?
How ? Why ? When ?

Amitiés,
David

What I suspect, Dave, is that the apron was torn either during the attack or while it was being moved to or traveling on the ambulance stretcher.

This is from the Eddowes Post-mortem.
The clothes were taken off carefully from the body. A piece of deceased's ear dropped from the clothing.

Imagine that the piece of ear might have been what was left at Goulston Street and then ask what would the argument be?
Even though it would be the truth that the ear piece had been stuck in the clothing and fallen out, it would still appear logical to some that it was taken there by the killer.

The same parameters are what I'm applying to the apron piece.
It fell off of the body and was picked up by a citizen.
The motive is what Warren feared.
To incite anger against the Jews.

[DaveMc]

This sort of brings back to point that I originally made this thread for - the word Juwes and the theory from my class that it was actually meant to mean something other than Jew. Lol. Back to square one.

And yes, that was basically what I was trying to say before. About no evidence pointing to what he did, so therefore wouldn't alot of what has been figured out as his M.O and whatnot have to be alot of just that - guesswork?

I think his method is realized in the official reports.
That's not a matter of guesswork to me.

[DVV]

Hi Dave,

thanks for your explanation above.
I would however stick to my belief that Jack purposely left the piece of apron where it has been found.

Amitiés,
David

[DaveMc]

Hi Dave,

thanks for your explanation above.
I would however stick to my belief that Jack purposely left the piece of apron where it has been found.

Amitiés,
David

Good.
Now I have something to tease you and Tom about.

By your own logic then, as easily as he slipped in to leave the message, he slipped his way out back to Buckingham Palace.

[JacknJill]

I think his method is realized in the official reports.
That's not a matter of guesswork to me.

What do we know? We know what the police found, and what they think that supposedly meant, but what solid evidence on JTR himself do we have? We can't make any decisions about him and say that they are correct, was all I was pointing out. Also, note I didn't say /all/ of it was guesswork?