The writing - a name?

[JacknJill]

Ok that's weird - I don't know why that posted again when I signed in...

[DaveMc]

Dave, you mentioned he tore the piece off instead of using his knife? Complete Jack the Ripper, pg. 59 - "As the body of Eddowes was being undressed in the mortuary, the detectives noticed that part if the bloodstained apron that was around her neck had been cut away."
Course, there could be facts written elsewhere saying the piece looked torn, but it is mentioned several times here that it had been cut away - with presumable - a knife.

Yeah, I saw that one but couldn't determine if they meant it was cut at the neck srap or at the corner. It seemed to me that it was the neck piece that had been "cut away", most likely when her throat was cut.

At the Inquest, during Constable Robinson's testimony it is described this way:
Mr. Crawford: Did any one appear to know her? - No. The apron being produced, torn and discoloured with blood, the witness said that to the best of his knowledge it was the apron the deceased was wearing.

That is the clearest reference I've found so far.

[DVV]

In the Complete Jack the Ripper by Donald Rumblelow the message is recorded as "The Juwes Are Not The Men That Will Be Blamed For Nothing."

The same with Paul Begg (The Facts).
And with good reasons.

Amitiés JacknJill,
David

[DaveMc]

The same with Paul Begg (The Facts).
And with good reasons.

Hi David,

Yet it's the original officer (Long) and the Commissioner, both on the scene, who say it was "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing."

I don't see how it's possible to deduce which way it was worded.

No doubt that the people standing there felt that it was an inflammatory remark.

Has anyone ever proposed a nationality of the writer?

I've heard that the Lusk letter was presumed written by a Scotsman due to the dialect or phrasing. I'm wondering if anyone has done the same with this.

[DVV]

Hi Dave,

well, I don't know what was the exact wording...

27 Oct (J. McWilliam): "The Jewes are the men that..."
But Lushington disagreed and thought it was "Juwes"...

6 Nov (Swanson) : "The Juwes are the men who will not..."

Long, also 6 Nov : "The Juews are the men that..."

Just a few examples...As if it was a terrific task to copy twelve words.

And then we have Stephenson peculiar French solution...while re Lusk letter, an Irishman (if I'm correct) has been suggested...

Amitiés,
David

[JacknJill]

At the Inquest, during Constable Robinson's testimony it is described this way:
Mr. Crawford: Did any one appear to know her? - No. The apron being produced, torn and discoloured with blood, the witness said that to the best of his knowledge it was the apron the deceased was wearing.

Thanks Dave. That's a much clearer reference to the apron piece than any I've found. Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way we can be sure. There are too many different versions.

[JacknJill]

Hi Dave,

well, I don't know what was the exact wording...

27 Oct (J. McWilliam): "The Jewes are the men that..."
But Lushington disagreed and thought it was "Juwes"...

6 Nov (Swanson) : "The Juwes are the men who will not..."

Long, also 6 Nov : "The Juews are the men that..."

Just a few examples...As if it was a terrific task to copy twelve words.

Amitiés,
David

I agree, it's ridiculous how many different versions there are. Perhaps it's possible that if the police force in Whitechapel back then had been just a little more serious about their work - more serious than to jot down twelve words without double checking - we'd have a better chance of getting somewhere with all this. Several of them spelt Juwes differently too.

[JacknJill]

I've actually heard some people comment that perhaps a policeman did it on purpose. Something about how if it was linked to the Ripper then a policeman could have been protecting him.

[DVV]

Hi JacknJill,

I don't understand. What is a policeman supposed to have done ?

Amitiés,
David

[DaveMc]

And then we have Stephenson peculiar French solution...while re Lusk letter, an Irishman (if I'm correct) has been suggested...

Bingo, you're right.

They said "Irish" in the video I got that from.
I just assumed since it had to with insanity, they made a mistake and meant to say it was a Scot.

[JacknJill]

Hi JacknJill,

I don't understand. What is a policeman supposed to have done ?

Amitiés,
David

Depending on which one you are replying to -
* It seems to me that if no policeman could copy down twelve words correctly then they weren't taking it all that seriously.
* If you were referring to the policeman protecting JTR, I've heard/read theories before that perhaps JTR had inside men (namely policemen) that somehow tampered with the case. In this instance - by pretending to copy down the message but really by copying it falsely. It's a bit far-fetched but it could be possible.

[Tom_Wescott]

Davey Mac and Edward,

You guys seem to be struggling to explain why the Ripper couldn't have written the graffiti. Of course he could have. In fact, he's the only person we can for certain place in that spot in that hour with a motive to write the graffiti. And, as Dave points out, the Ripper came prepared and had not removed an apron portion from Chapman, so what then would his purpose for the apron piece have been if not to accompany the graffiti? Sure, it would have been nice and neat for us all had he left it in Mitre Square, but he may have used up his alotted time and didn't want to risk it. Or, it may have been too dark in Mitre Square to allow for his writing. The investigating officers, for the most part, felt the graffiti was written by the Ripper, and perhaps that's for good reason.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DaveMc]

Davey Mac and Edward,

You guys seem to be struggling to explain why the Ripper couldn't have written the graffiti. Of course he could have. In fact, he's the only person we can for certain place in that spot in that hour with a motive to write the graffiti. And, as Dave points out, the Ripper came prepared and had not removed an apron portion from Chapman, so what then would his purpose for the apron piece have been if not to accompany the graffiti? Sure, it would have been nice and neat for us all had he left it in Mitre Square, but he may have used up his alotted time and didn't want to risk it. Or, it may have been too dark in Mitre Square to allow for his writing. The investigating officers, for the most part, felt the graffiti was written by the Ripper, and perhaps that's for good reason.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I have to reject that he was "the only person" to be placed in that spot.
There was a reported "mob" at the Stride scene just an hour before.
In several reports and accounts, there are people out doing the normal night's business, even with the rain.

According to the killers prior actions, he's long gone from the area by the time the message is placed.

With Halse and his officers prowling the streets between Mitre and Goulston (as he reports) it's beyond your own scope of reasoning that "the only man" in the location was not stopped by him while the killer has 15 minutes of lingering time on hand to avoid detection.
How cold Halse miss just ONE man.

I don't feel that I "struggled" to explain anything. There was no wild fancy in my argument.
I presented the absolute minimum times for loitering and placement.

If I did anything, I left the argument open to challenge by as much as I could.

I can't find a motive for the killer to have left the message.
I can't find a repetition of the act.
I can't find a reasonable opportunity for him to have done so.
I can't find reasonable risk for the killer to challenge avoiding the Police the that minimum 15 minute period of time to make the message.

The message is not that important and unfitting to any other act of the killer.
The message makes no statement, whatsoever, as to why he's killing.
In short?
It's makes no sense that the killer left that message.

There is some sense, however, in believing a frustrated citizen considered it a worthy act and that person could have more likely had the opportunity, time and means to do it.

The stretch of the argument is that the message and piece weren't found until 2:55. Allowing 5 minutes to write the message and get out of sight, the time for the killer's travel time extends 25 minutes and his loiter time increases from 15 minutes to 40 minutes.
The time he carries the piece reported still "wet with blood" extends to over an hour's time.

If I struggled to do anything, it was to err on the side of a counter-argument.
The weight of the matter clearly favors that someone other than the killer made that message.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Dave,

The mob outside Dutfield's Yard was nowhere near Goulston Street, so I don't get your point there. As for opportunity, there was over 30 minutes from when the Ripper left Mitre Square to when the graffiti was discovered. That's ample opportunity.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think Halse is the only person known to have been at both places, Mitre Square and Goulston St.

best wishes

Phil