Jack the Ripper was NOT a sailor because...

[Billy Bulger]

Hi everyone,

In the last year or so I have come across many an author subscribing to the belief that the Ripper was a sailor; a subscription certainly supported by Joseph Lawende and perhaps Israel Schwartz too. Indeed, many boats are recorded as docking and leaving at ideal times for one of its occupants to have committed the Whitechapel murders. However, while books like Jack the Ripper-the 21st Century investigation can certainly argue this point credibly and convincingly, one thing has always struck me as a flaw: if Jack the Ripper really was a sailor, or some sort of maritime employee surely he would have engaged in intercourse with one or more of the victims. Forgive me for being so blunt but considering the prolonged solitude endured by the typical sailor or fisherman of late Victoriana, surely the availability of sex presented by the five canonical victims would prove too appealing to be turned down.
One could argue that if the Ripper was a sailor he could merely have been to see another girl prior to meeting with the victims (if the need struck him) but considering it was customary for the prostitute of 1888 (and presumably of today too) to insist on payment prior to sex this would mean that the Ripper would ultimately have to pay two girls with his meager sailor earnings.

So that's my take on the sailor theory, if anyone has any points for or against you're welcome to make them.
Personally speaking, what has drawn me to the Ripper mystery has been the almost certain fiction of royalty/masonic connections and the 'romance' of the Victorian Villian as portrayed in From Hell and the like. I know the actuality of the Ripper was probably very different but its this fairytale icon (tophat, galdstone bag) that has perpetuated my interest-and the interest of most who would have ordinarily not been interested in the Whitechapel Fiend. For the Ripper to now be exposed as a prosaic fisherman or slaughterer (although both scenarios are just as likely as he being a Toff) then it would eradicate all the veneer afforded to him over the last century and expose him as what he was:a glamorless, bloody thug.














Yet, as is common knowledge, the Ripper did not engage in intercourse with Mary Jane and the like.

[DVV]

Hi Billy,
Sorry, but I can't see your point! Anybody that goes to a prostitute has a urge for sex, no?!

Amitiés,
David

[Limehouse]

Hello Billy,

This is an interesting post. I don't have feelings in favour or against the killer being a sailor. However, your assertion that if the killer was a sailor he would have probably felt the urge to have sex with the victimes due to his absence from woman away at sea has two flaws for me. Firsly, it assumes that the killer had an appetite for normal sexual intercourse and I don';t think this can be fully established. Killers of this sort often get sexually arroused by the acts of violence and killing itself. On the other hand, some of them are unable to have 'normal' sex with a woman or are afraid or repulsed by sex with women (but this does not mean they are gay).

Secondly, not all sailors went off on long trips involving prolonged periods away from women. Some of the boats travelled to and from the continent, to places such as Holland and were out of port for only a day or two -and even then there would be opportunities for sex in ports that they visited to pick up cargo.

[DVV]

Hi everyone,

One could argue that if the Ripper was a sailor he could merely have been to see another girl prior to meeting with the victims (if the need struck him) but considering it was customary for the prostitute of 1888 (and presumably of today too) to insist on payment prior to sex this would mean that the Ripper would ultimately have to pay two girls with his meager sailor earnings.

Hi again Billy,
certainly a sailor would not have been the poorest guy that one can imagine, and on the contrary, sailors are well known to spend their money with prostitutes, and drinking, etc.
Just look at the example of Thomas Sadler...or just visit Toulon where I'm living!
Secondly, the question of the Ripper's sexuality has not not much to do with his profession. That's a mystery hidden deep inside his personality and background, don't you think?
Amitiés,
David

[Justin]

Billy,

I don't think the murderer was a sailor either, but my reasons belong elsewhere. Though I must say your reasoning seems a bit flawed. First, sailors weren't necessarily poor. Depending on their ship and time at sea, sailors could expect to be decently paid on their return. They were able to live hard simply because they had the money, and several banks were set up for their use. Also, we shouldn't assume that intercourse trumps all. The killer easily could've had no conventional interest in it; been impotent; achieved release through the killing itself, etc.

Best,

Justin

[Sam Flynn]

Much of this surely arises from the myth that North Whitechapel/Spitalfields was THE place for prostitution, but that wasn't the case. It's true that a number of "unfortunates" lived there, but there were other areas where the prostitute population was even higher - and many Spitalfields prostitutes plied their trade elsewhere.

The crucial point to bear in mind is that there were plenty of places closer to the docks where a seafaring Ripper would have found a ready supply of victims to choose from. The fact that practically none of the WM victims were killed near the docks would seem to weigh reasonably strongly against the possibility that he was a sailor.

[DVV]

I see (and aprreciate, as usual) your logic Sam, but still the sailor-theory will ever be a serious one, since Lawende will ever be our best witness...
We have the example of Sadler, who used to visit Whitechapel prostitutes, we have Grainger, who stabbed a prostitues in Spitalfields as well, and I guess you will agree that sailors were not uncommon in the area.
If it goes with theories, an unknown local or a sailor seem the more likely ones to me.

Amitiés,
David

ps: your last post on one James Evans much appreciated, as well as your old memories of this charming "condisciple"!

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Dave,

I see (and aprreciate, as usual) your logic Sam, but still the sailor-theory will ever be a serious one, since Lawende will ever be our best witness...

...as Shakespeare reminds us, "Cucullus not facit monachum" - or, in this context, "A sailor's hat does not make a sailor".

We have the example of Sadler, who used to visit Whitechapel prostitutes

A very good point, however we should generalise with caution. There certainly were large numbers of prostitutes operating in Poplar and St George's East, which were further south than Spitalfields, and closer to the river. In fact, there were more prostitutes in Poplar than either Whitechapel or Spitalfields, which probably reflects the number of sailors that would have frequented the docklands area. Supply meets demand, and all that.

your last post on one James Evans much appreciated, as well as your old memories of this charming "condisciple"!

Croyez-moi, David, elle était vraiment jolie - et, par coincidence, une bonne linguiste, qui aimait beaucoup la littérature française!

[Fisherman]

Hmmm, Sam; only a few days back it was mentioned on the boards that Mary Kelly was very partial to sailors, that being the reason why she used Leman Street as a favourite territory. It was one of Natalies posts if I recall correctly.
Your point on there being nearer venues to use for a sailor is of course correct, though.

To Billy Bulger:
Billy, I really think that the Ripper HAD sex with the victims - in not too usual a fashion, admittedly...

All the best,

Fisherman

[Cap'n Jack]

If he had been a sailor then surely he would have had a list?

As regards all these vessels which supposedly docked in London to coincide with the Whitechapel Murders then I would dearly love a name, as I have spent years researching said vessels in the shipping lists and as yet have found none that actually do that rare thing. Dear old Trev's much vaunted ship was drifting off Madeira with no rudder when he claimed it was docked in London.

[DVV]

Hi Sam,
certainly the fact that he had the appearance of a sailor does not prove he was a sailor - but it does not indicates he was not as well...
It's also worth remind (as I did today on another thread) that another witness, Marshall, mentionned his man wearing a "sailor like" cape, but explicitly said that he did not look like a sailor...So I'm not so sure that Lawende did refer to a sailor only because of the clothes (red scarf, for instance) and cape.
In any case, the fact that Whitechapel was a little bit far from the docks does not weaken that much the sailor theory. It makes more sense to me than many other theories (doctors, Polish-Jews... just to mention the "acceptable" ones)...though I admit I may excessively focus on Grainger!

As to the French literature...wide subject...but I love so much Chesterton, Stevenson, De Quincey...

Amitiés,
David

[Natalie Severn]

Hmmm, Sam; only a few days back it was mentioned on the boards that Mary Kelly was very partial to sailors, that being the reason why she used Leman Street as a favourite territory. It was one of Natalies posts if I recall correctly.
Your point on there being nearer venues to use for a sailor is of course correct, though.

To Billy Bulger:
Billy, I really think that the Ripper HAD sex with the victims - in not too usual a fashion, admittedly...

All the best,

Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,
Yes I did read somewhere that she was very fond of sailors but in Mary"s case I think she may have been even fonder of the bottle of yo ho ho!
I can"t for the life of me see how you can have the ripper having sex with his victims though!Unless he was Houdini!

[Bailey]

... this would mean that the Ripper would ultimately have to pay two girls with his meager sailor earnings.

In all fairness, once he'd finished his mutilations, he would be in a reasonable position to extract a refund. It could even be during the process of hunting through pockets to get his money back that he found the personal items laid out at the Chapman scene, rather than it being something more planned. This could apply to any suspect who wouldn't want to lose his fourpence.

I must say that I'm with the others who have stated that the killing and mutilation of the victims (most probably) was the sex act for this killer, so on those grounds, plus all the other sexual opportunities a sailor might have as mentioned in the thread, I certainly don't believe the lack of evidence of sex excludes a sailor.

B.

[DVV]

Hi Fisherman,
I can"t for the life of me see how you can have the ripper having sex with his victims though!Unless he was Houdini!

Your remind me my old Italian teacher saying she used to make love with her husband playing chess...

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

Your remind me my old Italian teacher saying she used to make love with her husband playing chess...

...presumably a sure-fire way of getting him to mate