Jack the Ripper was NOT a sailor because...

[DVV]

Hi all,
just a question, if anyone can answer:
was there any marked difference between a sailor-like appearance and that of a dock labourer?

Amitiés,
David

[Supe]

David,

was there any marked difference between a sailor-like appearance and that of a dock labourer?

You would have to ask Joseph Lawende--and I am not being facetious. Rather, that is a problem with so many of the witness accounts--thet are to a great extent subjective. Just as we can only marvel at witnesses saying someone was "36-years-old." How can they be so exact?

Don.

[Sam Flynn]

was there any marked difference between a sailor-like appearance and that of a dock labourer?

I don't think that dock labourers had a "uniform" as such, David - most of the poor wretches would've turned up in whatever meagre clothes they had, and got on with it. That said, that proportion of them who weren't emaciated would have looked reasonably fit, and might well have cut a sailorly (or soldierly) figure. Some of them, too, would have owned sailors' caps and cravats without ever having boarded ship. Indeed, in a world where people's wardrobes often comprised borrowed, pawned, stolen or found items of clothing, it wasn't only dock-workers or sailors who would have worn such things.

[DVV]

Thanks Supe and Sam,
but my problem now is that Lawende did not describe any uniform.
We know that he may have said something like "the man looked like a sailor".
But was it possible, at that time, to make a statement such as: "the man looked like a dock labourer"? It sounds a little bit strange to me, and perhaps a "sailor like appearance" may have tacitly included a dock labourer appearance, or that of any worker of this kind.
What do you think?

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

but my problem now is that Lawende did not describe any uniform. We know that he may have said something like "the man looked like a sailor".

His description is recorded as "pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in knot around neck, appearance of a sailor". Clearly, the "uniform" described was not that of a sailor, but the style of the reddish neckerchief tied around the throat may have been reminiscent of the neckwear of some sailors. Alternatively, the man's overall "bearing" may have indicated a degree of fitness on his part, that reminded Lawende of a naval rating. It's more likely a combination of those factors

However, it's worth pointing out that "appearance of a sailor" does not mean "dressed in sailor's clothes". Why would Lawende have described his man in such a long-winded manner, if he could simply have said "he was wearing a sailor's uniform"?

It sounds a little bit strange to me, and perhaps a "sailor like appearance" may have tacitly included a dock labourer appearance, or that of any worker of this kind.

I agree - sailor, dock-labourer, soldier, policeman, brick-layer, hod-carrier... all of whom, dressed in more-or-less civilian clothing, may have had a rather strapping build, which reinforced with a knotted neckerchief, might well have put one in mind of a sailor. In other words, may have given "the appearance of" one.

[DVV]

Thanks Sam,
It's interesting to hold the notion of the sailor lato sensu, for Lawende's statement.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks Sam,
It's interesting to hold the notion of the sailor lato sensu, for Lawende's statement.

Indeed, because it's only really in the widest terms that "appearance of a sailor" can be taken, in contrast to "wearing the clothing of a sailor" - which, significantly, is what Lawende did not say.

[Supe]

David,

I think it is important to keep in mind, as Sam suggested, that Lawende was almost certainly not talking about someone in the Rotal Navy but rather a merchant seaman, of whom there were many and who had no offcial unifrom, but often dressed in similar clothes because of their job utility. Thus, the pepper and salt coat may have been a pea jacket and the single-billed cap of the sort sported much later by Zorba and favored by mariners long before.

Don.

[DVV]

Hi Don,
I have never imagined the man seen by Lawende with an uniform...
Who told you that???

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Don,
I have never imagined the man seen by Lawende with an uniform...
Who told you that???

I don't think that Don ever would have thought that, Dave - he was merely offering a general caution against that common Ripperlogists' disease of "reading too much into things". I'm sure he wasn't including you in that category either, but it's easy to go overboard (pardon pun) in the interpretation of witness testimony, especially when it comes to "proving" that Jack was a sailor. He might well have been, but there's little in Lawende's statement that emphatically identifies him as one.

[DVV]

(continuation of my previous post)
On the contrary, the very question I asked shows I was not satisfied with the notion of a sailor stricto sensu. My interest is rather in men working in a "sailor" environment, such as Grainger the "ship's fireman" (who, it seems, used to travel frequently between Ireland and England), or Fleming, who at a time was said to be a dock-labourer. And without giving names, such rough-looking characters (see the evasive statement of Levy), with a faint smell of sea...

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

You are right Sam, sorry for my tone.
I'm in complete agreement with Supe's post.

Mille excuses, gentlemen,
David