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Non-Fiction: Jack and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Ripper? - by Abby Normal 12 minutes ago.
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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #181  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:51 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Someone with a morbid fantasy to disembowel, which eventually became so extreme he had to act it out?
We might wonder the same about Tabram. Perhaps we should be looking for a murder victim who died from 38 stab-wounds, before that 37 (and so on).
thats actually pretty funny
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  #182  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:55 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Ah, but the stab wounds were the cause of death because of bleeding. So that is why we hear about the stab wounds but what we don't hear so much about is that her head had also sustained impact damage
Which none of the Ripper victims had.
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and it appears someone also attacked her private parts
One cut, three inches in length, as I recall. Every other wound was focused on the upper half of the abdomen, the thorax and throat.
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She was also posed sexually
Subjective. She might just have been killed in flagrante and left to die.
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and had her clothes ripped open not unlike Eddowes
I don't believe her clothing had been ripped up like Eddowes' had.
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The victimology is there also.
Victimology is not specific enough a criterion. Loads of unfortunates were, and still are, killed by strangers.
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I think also we should assume she was strangled given her tongue is still popping out even in her morgue photo.
It's unclear whether most of the Ripper victims were strangled. Even if they were, it's hardly a distinctive method of shutting someone up or killing them.
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The cause of death was given as stabbing and blood loss at her inquest, but there was much more that happened to her which was held back least they offend sensitive ears.
She sustained a single cut to her private area, details of which would have been offensive enough in those days. There is absolutely no indication that she sustained anything like the injuries of even a Polly Nichols, the "mildest" of the mutilation murders of Jack the Ripper.
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Of course after Nichols and when Chapman appeared, they realized they shouldn't be holding things back like this because...... they were connected all along.
They probably weren't, because they were very, very different crimes.
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  #183  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:09 PM
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In one of the records on Nichols there is the suggestion she was punched out to explain the bruising on her lower face. They all had trauma similar to this on their faces. It is likely this came about with the force of his hands around their necks in his initial thrust and when he pushed them down. I think Chapman has a thumb grip print on her chin or neck.

What this Tabram to Kelly shows is the evolution of violent blows followed by manual strangulation and stabbing.... to violent throws, neck severing and eviscerations, IMO. He was obviously learning that violent blows and manual strangulation wasn't quick enough. Which as pointed out may have been learned from Emma Smith surviving her attack and such learning applied to Tabram etc.,

It wouldn't surprise me if JtR turned out to be the son of a well-known Lodging house owner.
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  #184  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:30 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Someone with a morbid fantasy to disembowel, which eventually became so extreme he had to act it out?
We might wonder the same about Tabram. Perhaps we should be looking for a murder victim who died from 38 stab-wounds, before that 37 (and so on).
There is evidence that serial killers need more and more stimulus to obtain their satisfaction and hence escalation and change to MO is not unusual. The change in attack following the Tabram murder (assuming the same killer) could easily stem from this. Coupled with all the other similarities between the Tabram and C5 murders, I find it much more difficult to dismiss the possibility that Tabram was a JtR victim than you do.

You may, of course, be correct and Tabram was not a JtR victim. But so many coincidences are a stretch.
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  #185  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:40 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
There is evidence that serial killers need more and more stimulus to obtain their satisfaction and hence escalation and change to MO is not unusual. The change in attack following the Tabram murder (assuming the same killer) could easily stem from this. Coupled with all the other similarities between the Tabram and C5 murders, I find it much more difficult to dismiss the possibility that Tabram was a JtR victim than you do.

You may, of course, be correct and Tabram was not a JtR victim. But so many coincidences are a stretch.
"coincidences". The last refuge for a scoundrel!! : )
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #186  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:31 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
In one of the records on Nichols there is the suggestion she was punched out to explain the bruising on her lower face. They all had trauma similar to this on their faces. It is likely this came about with the force of his hands around their necks in his initial thrust and when he pushed them down. I think Chapman has a thumb grip print on her chin or neck.

What this Tabram to Kelly shows is the evolution of violent blows followed by manual strangulation and stabbing.... to violent throws, neck severing and eviscerations, IMO. He was obviously learning that violent blows and manual strangulation wasn't quick enough. Which as pointed out may have been learned from Emma Smith surviving her attack and such learning applied to Tabram etc.,

It wouldn't surprise me if JtR turned out to be the son of a well-known Lodging house owner.

It wouldn't surprise me if the ripper was a carman/butcher/copper/peer of the realm...
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  #187  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:16 PM
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It wouldn't surprise me if the ripper was a carman/butcher/copper/peer of the realm...
This week I learned again that PC Watkins who found Eddowes had been done a few times for using prostitutes and being in a pub on duty a few times, the latter of which was apparently more reprimandable.

I also learned again that Mary Anne Poll Connolly knew both Emma Smith and Tabram. Which concerns our hot zone.

Both of these from Wescott's book and he suggests that Connolly made up her story based on reading a journalists mistake and that he suspects she may have also been coerced to make up her story by someone protecting interests in Lodging houses... and possibly the culprit.

That there was much more police corruption than many would care to admit in the historical records of H division... especially H division apparently in 1888.

That a combination of those problems with Whitechapel's wall of silence and lies allowed JtR to get away with it.

It seems magistrates were looking for reasons to close these places down and Smith may have been attacked in one or by someone associated with them, so was forced to lie, maybe.

Anyway, I know Sam responded to this already elsewhere but I want to ask this here...

It concerns the Hot Zone and the victims.

Mary Ann Connelly (Pearly Poll), Irish origin, was giving evidence that she had seen the soldier who was with Martha Tabram the night she was murdered. Connelly may also not be trustworthy and it appears she may have told a whole load of lies. She has a few things going for her and lots against. Here are some points mixed up.
  • Her story seems to be fabricated based on misreading a journalists article on the murdered woman (Tabram).
  • Her timing conflicts with another witness.
  • No one saw her to corroborate her account.
  • However a PC Barrett did see two soldiers and spoke to one.
  • No one could place Connelly elsewhere.

Could Jack the Ripper have been someone who is trying to locate Mary Ann Connelly? That he doesn't know what she looks like, that he believes she can associate him with both crimes (Connelly knew Smith and Tabram) and he is trying to find her to kill her?

Mary Polly Anne Nichols.
Anne Chapman.
Mary Anne Kelly a.k.a - Catherine Eddowes
Mary Jane Kelly.

Stride also knew Tabram and maybe the others. I have to read more on that.

Could Mary Ann Connelly have been the reason for what seems to be a very strange coincidence of victim's name and JtR's victims?
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  #188  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:25 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Mary and Anne were extremely popular names. If I remember, I'll post some very specific stats later, when I get home.
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  #189  
Old 10-23-2018, 12:17 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Not playing the clown, just pointing out that blunt head trauma is rather common in cases of murder, or manslaughter for that matter. Although, oddly enough, it isn't a feature of the unequivocal Ripper murders.

In the specific case of Tabram, she was killed on some stone stairs, so it's likely that her killer took advantage of this and banged her head against them, rather than hitting her deliberately with a blunt instrument. It's also possible that her head was damaged as a by-product of falling or being thrown to the floor. We cannot necessarily read this as a signature on her killer's behalf.
Nor do I do so. I merely point out that it makes for a logical chain of events if the 1874 victim and Tabram were both hit over the head. And much as blunt head trauma is common in murder cases, cases involving extreme knife violence in combination with blunt head trauma takes the matter to another level.
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  #190  
Old 10-23-2018, 12:21 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Tabram's killer didn't target her private parts, which escaped relatively unscathed. Instead, he targeted the throat, chest and upper abdomen... raining down with vicious stabs. Indeed, whilst Tabram's throat was stabbed NINE times (a huge amount, given the size of the target), it was not cut. There were seventeen stab wounds to the chest (again a huge amount), whereas none of the Ripper victims suffered any stabs to the chest, or any significant stab-wounds elsewhere, for that matter. What happened to Tabram shows a very different "signature" to what we see barely three weeks later with Nichols and her canonical successors.
Tabram had a knife wound to her private parts - but the overall attack was directed to other areas.

Nichols had two small stab wounds to her private parts - but the overall attack was directed to other areas.

That does not make all that much of a difference to me. The killer in both cases showed an interest in the private parts and used a knife on them on both occasions. That carries a lot of interest in any serious investigation.
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