The Zodiac Killer

[Joshua Rogan]

Could Zodiac have been inspired by the Texarkana murderer, and added his own pseudo-occult overtones?

[RivkahChaya]

I think Zodiac was equally "inspired" by all serial killers who went down in history under a nickname. I think he also thought the power they had when they held a whole city in a grip of terror was admirable. JtR and killers like the Texarkana phantom may not have set out to create terror; it was just a side effect, but I think it was a primary goal of the Zodiac.

Anyway, he may have been inspired to wear the hood he wore that one time by the mask the phantom supposedly wore.

But something to remember: The Town that Dreaded Sundown was probably intentionally made to reference the Zodiac, as it was made when the case was current. Reality may have been less Zodiac-like.

I'm like most people (who discuss such things regularly), though: the movie was my introduction to the case, and while I have read articles, I don't know much about it, while I know quite a bit about the Zodiac. I'm in the middle of a big project now, but I really should put "Read a whole book just on the Texarkana phantom," on my list of things to do, so I can discuss it more intelligently.

If you are well-read regarding the Texarkana phantom, and know the movie to be very accurate, then I apologize, but right now, my cursory knowledge seems to suggest a less Zodiac-like killer than the movie suggests.

[Defective Detective]

When bringing David Berkowitz into the discussion, just to be thorough I think one must also consider whether his claim of not being a lone killer but a member of a cult that carried out the Son of Sam crimes is true. He was caught as a result of the Stacy Moskowitz murder in which an eyewitness insists that Berkowitz couldn't have been the shooter that he saw commit the crime, and Berkowitz himself claims he was only present as a lookout for that shooting. He also does not use the cult claim to try and make himself out to be innocent- he admits to pulling the trigger a certain number of times and says he belongs in prison. There were multiple eyewitness sketches of the Son of Sam, only a couple of which resemble Berkowitz. The others resemble John Carr, who along with his brother Michael have been implicated as being the other Son of Sam shooters. Maybe Berkowitz seems creepy when he does interviews in light of the knowledge of what he's done and because he is a generally eccentric character, but I saw one in which he was being asked specifically about the Carr brothers (whose father's name was Sam, and that is where the name is alleged to come from). Even though both brothers were deceased by then, his fear of them still seemed palpable as he clenched up and would only answer yes to their guilt with his eyes closed.

I believe Berkowitz's cult claim, whereas the Zodiac was a true loner.

Looking into the Process Church, I definitely feel there's something there, no matter how conspiratorial that sounds.

[Marty]

Fascinating posts here. Did the FBI ever respond regarding

Dennis Kaufman's Father's belongings ? Seems if he was faking it they would arrest him for at least wasting their time ??

[Stacker]

Has there been any official estimate on the probability of the Zodiac Killer still being alive today?

I know that there was an official estimate of the probability of the Golden State Killer still being alive at some point that placed the odds at "85%".

[JeffHamm]

Hi,

Just bumping an old thread on Zodiac as I stumbled across this today, although it came out 2 or 3 weeks ago:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12096047/FBI-identified-Zodiac-Killer-Air-Force-veteran-Gary-Francis-Poste-died-2018.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

I've seen a couple other articles too, on the same date, but nothing wide-spread.

I had heard about "Casebreakers" presenting Poste as a potential Zodiac a few years ago now (2021), but I was also under the impression that had been disproven, or at least considered nothing more than typical "Oh look, we solved it" type hype.

I would have thought that if it was as solid as the Daily Mail suggests, they say there's DNA evidence linking Poste to the crimes, then it would have gotten wider coverage.

Is this, as the cynic in me suspects, just a lot of hot air? I've not seen any rebuttal articles, although it has garnered some pretty scathing comments on the Zodiac boards elsewhere.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi,

Just bumping an old thread on Zodiac as I stumbled across this today, although it came out 2 or 3 weeks ago:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12096047/FBI-identified-Zodiac-Killer-Air-Force-veteran-Gary-Francis-Poste-died-2018.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

I've seen a couple other articles too, on the same date, but nothing wide-spread.

I had heard about "Casebreakers" presenting Poste as a potential Zodiac a few years ago now (2021), but I was also under the impression that had been disproven, or at least considered nothing more than typical "Oh look, we solved it" type hype.

I would have thought that if it was as solid as the Daily Mail suggests, they say there's DNA evidence linking Poste to the crimes, then it would have gotten wider coverage.

Is this, as the cynic in me suspects, just a lot of hot air? I've not seen any rebuttal articles, although it has garnered some pretty scathing comments on the Zodiac boards elsewhere.

- Jeff

yeah, saw this too..probably only hot air, but well see. If there was really a dna match it would be huge and all over the place. Especially here in tje states, where the zodiac is probably the most famous unsolved serial killer case.

[JeffHamm]

yeah, saw this too..probably only hot air, but well see. If there was really a dna match it would be huge and all over the place. Especially here in tje states, where the zodiac is probably the most famous unsolved serial killer case.

Thanks Abby. That's what I suspect as well, but just wanted to see if maybe I've somehow managed to miss the news. As you say, it would be pretty major headlines, at least for awhile, if it were as substantial as implied. However, if it's no more than the Case Breakers re-stating their claim from 2021 with nothing actually substantial having been uncovered since then that would explain the crickets.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Abby. That's what I suspect as well, but just wanted to see if maybe I've somehow managed to miss the news. As you say, it would be pretty major headlines, at least for awhile, if it were as substantial as implied. However, if it's no more than the Case Breakers re-stating their claim from 2021 with nothing actually substantial having been uncovered since then that would explain the crickets.

- Jeff

hi jeff
its been a while since ive done anything with the zodiac case, but upon rexamining everything i think that dna could possibly be used to rule someone in, but there should be alot of care about trying to rule someone out. the dna was only partial to begin with and this was back in the late 60s/ early 70s when dna science was in its infancy. also the dna collected was from the stamps /envelopes of the zodiac letters which of course opens up the the possibility of innocent transfer from someone who wasnt the killer.

Also in 2018, they tried to use the dna to match someone using the same method as was used to catch tje GSK, with apparently no luck. as that was five years ago, it makes me really skeptical about the dna evidence they have. im starting to think its not the zodiacs dna, or that the partial sample simply isnt enough.

When i first got into this case and all the evidence, I came to tje conclusion that the only official suspect the police ever named, Arthur Leigh Allen, was more than likely the zodiac. I still beleive that. Now of course, his dna was not a match, but as ive said, at this point i think the dna might be a red herring. use it with caution, use it to try and rule in suspects, but by no means use it to rule out suspects, which i think too many have in the case with ALA.

[rjpalmer]

I would have thought that if it was as solid as the Daily Mail suggests, they say there's DNA evidence linking Poste to the crimes, then it would have gotten wider coverage.

Hi Jeff

I ran this same news story by Howard Brown a couple of weeks ago, and he sent me the following link. The article is a couple of years old and doesn't mention this alleged breakthrough, but you might find it interesting.

Zodiac Expert Calls ‘Bullshit’ on Possible ID of Serial Killer – Rolling Stone


I'm guessing that this unnamed 'F.B.I. whistleblower' might prove as difficult to track down as the Zodiac himself...

[JeffHamm]

hi jeff
its been a while since ive done anything with the zodiac case, but upon rexamining everything i think that dna could possibly be used to rule someone in, but there should be alot of care about trying to rule someone out. the dna was only partial to begin with and this was back in the late 60s/ early 70s when dna science was in its infancy. also the dna collected was from the stamps /envelopes of the zodiac letters which of course opens up the the possibility of innocent transfer from someone who wasnt the killer.

Also in 2018, they tried to use the dna to match someone using the same method as was used to catch tje GSK, with apparently no luck. as that was five years ago, it makes me really skeptical about the dna evidence they have. im starting to think its not the zodiacs dna, or that the partial sample simply isnt enough.

When i first got into this case and all the evidence, I came to tje conclusion that the only official suspect the police ever named, Arthur Leigh Allen, was more than likely the zodiac. I still beleive that. Now of course, his dna was not a match, but as ive said, at this point i think the dna might be a red herring. use it with caution, use it to try and rule in suspects, but by no means use it to rule out suspects, which i think too many have in the case with ALA.

Hi Abby,

Yah, I think the DNA is supposed to come from the back of the stamps, so would identify who licked the stamp, but not necessarily identify who wrote the letter and/or was the killer. As you say, it could rule in, but not definitively rule out, a suspect. I've not followed the Zodiac case particularly closely, though have read Graysmith's original book (which apparently has a fair number of errors, but what true crime book doesn't?). My understanding is that ALA was also ruled out based upon fingerprints from the Stein case, but I'm not positive on that. Again, I suppose a similar argument could be made along the lines of Zodiac wore gloves - I'm presuming Zodiac's claim of airplane glue over his finger tips was just hot air - so any fingerprints in a cab are from others and not finding his gets explained, etc. Still, it starts looking like sweeping disconfirming evidence under the carpet, which I'm not a big fan of. Anyway, it is starting to look like this is nothing more than hype that hasn't gained any real traction.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff

I ran this same news story by Howard Brown a couple of weeks ago, and he sent me the following link. The article is a couple of years old and doesn't mention this alleged breakthrough, but you might find it interesting.

Zodiac Expert Calls ‘Bullshit’ on Possible ID of Serial Killer – Rolling Stone


I'm guessing that this unnamed 'F.B.I. whistleblower' might prove as difficult to track down as the Zodiac himself...

Thanks rj, I had read that article when it first came out, and it poked all the right holes in the original claim, and it was nice to go over it again. Showing there are alternative explanations just means the proposed solution need not be correct, it doesn't mean it can't be. So, seeing this new article claiming a DNA link to Poste made me wonder if perhaps something new has come up of a more difficult to sink nature. The lack of wider coverage, though, makes me think there's something less substantial than what their DNA claim appears to suggest; as in, I'm not sure they've actually made a match and it may be they just want to do a test. The claim that some FBI whistle blower has indicated that a match has been made is not entirely convincing to me. I mean really, one can find "official" people to back up the claim that there are alien bodies being kept hidden (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ezQ7mFeKi8), so I think I'll wait for something more.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Yah, I think the DNA is supposed to come from the back of the stamps, so would identify who licked the stamp, but not necessarily identify who wrote the letter and/or was the killer. As you say, it could rule in, but not definitively rule out, a suspect. I've not followed the Zodiac case particularly closely, though have read Graysmith's original book (which apparently has a fair number of errors, but what true crime book doesn't?). My understanding is that ALA was also ruled out based upon fingerprints from the Stein case, but I'm not positive on that. Again, I suppose a similar argument could be made along the lines of Zodiac wore gloves - I'm presuming Zodiac's claim of airplane glue over his finger tips was just hot air - so any fingerprints in a cab are from others and not finding his gets explained, etc. Still, it starts looking like sweeping disconfirming evidence under the carpet, which I'm not a big fan of. Anyway, it is starting to look like this is nothing more than hype that hasn't gained any real traction.

- Jeff

hi jeff
considering the lengths the zodiac went to, including the detailed letters, ciphers, plans for bombs, elaborate costume etc., i think it would unwise to assume his claim of airplane glue on his fingers is hot air. he probably at least wore gloves.

ALA has overwhelming evidence against him, not only circumstantial, but eyewitness:

he lived in the immediate area of the crimes, and mere minutes away from one crime scene and where one of the victims lived.
he was former navy and owned a pair of navy wing walker shoes, the same type ided at a crime scene. in the navy is where one could get a background in weapons and ciphers.
He was fired from teaching for having in apropriate behavior with students, and was convicted for sexually assaulting a minor, so not only does he have a disturbing criminal record, the zodiac letters referenced killing children, blowing up schoolbuses etc.
A typewriter he owned was tje same that one of the letters were written.
He owned guns and knives and a witness said they saw a bloody knife in his car around the time of one of the murders.
He fit the description of the witnesses, and the police sketch looks alot like him.
according to two friends, he confessed, which led to the polices second look at him. (more on this later).

the next three are big ones for me and pretty much put it over the edge.
he was ided emphatically by one of his surviving victims.
he owned a zodiac brand watch whose crossed circle symbol was the zodiacs symbol.
he was a suspect twice independently by police. the first in 69, because he was spotted near one of the crime scenes, and then again a couple years later based on the friends he confessed to then going to police. I mean what are the chances that these last three are mere circumstances??

I admit the forensic evidence him is weak and possibly exculpatory but he has alot of circumstantial AND eyewitness evidence against him, and was the only officially named suspect by the police, many of who beleived he was def the zodiac. I think they are probably right.

and while this latest suspect looks like a bust, im fairly positive that the zodiac will be positively ided eventually.

[JeffHamm]

hi jeff
considering the lengths the zodiac went to, including the detailed letters, ciphers, plans for bombs, elaborate costume etc., i think it would unwise to assume his claim of airplane glue on his fingers is hot air. he probably at least wore gloves.

ALA has overwhelming evidence against him, not only circumstantial, but eyewitness:

he lived in the immediate area of the crimes, and mere minutes away from one crime scene and where one of the victims lived.
he was former navy and owned a pair of navy wing walker shoes, the same type ided at a crime scene. in the navy is where one could get a background in weapons and ciphers.
He was fired from teaching for having in apropriate behavior with students, and was convicted for sexually assaulting a minor, so not only does he have a disturbing criminal record, the zodiac letters referenced killing children, blowing up schoolbuses etc.
A typewriter he owned was tje same that one of the letters were written.
He owned guns and knives and a witness said they saw a bloody knife in his car around the time of one of the murders.
He fit the description of the witnesses, and the police sketch looks alot like him.
according to two friends, he confessed, which led to the polices second look at him. (more on this later).

the next three are big ones for me and pretty much put it over the edge.
he was ided emphatically by one of his surviving victims.
he owned a zodiac brand watch whose crossed circle symbol was the zodiacs symbol.
he was a suspect twice independently by police. the first in 69, because he was spotted near one of the crime scenes, and then again a couple years later based on the friends he confessed to then going to police. I mean what are the chances that these last three are mere circumstances??

I admit the forensic evidence him is weak and possibly exculpatory but he has alot of circumstantial AND eyewitness evidence against him, and was the only officially named suspect by the police, many of who beleived he was def the zodiac. I think they are probably right.

and while this latest suspect looks like a bust, im fairly positive that the zodiac will be positively ided eventually.

Hi Abby,

Gloves would be more likely in my opinion, though some have suggested that his pointing out how he prevented leaving fingerprints could have been because he didn't do anything and wanted to be able to explain his prints if necessary, and since Zodiac covered his fingers with glue, that means I can't be Zodiac as my prints are there, etc. That idea also explains why he was seen wiping down the car by the kids in the window; why bother if you've covered up your fingerprints? And, I think the friend of ALA who claimed he had confessed has been shown to be unreliable and may have had a grudge against him.

ALA was a despicable individual, for sure, and he seemed to relish the attention (which would fit with Zodiac's desire for publicity), but as I understand it a lot of the circumstantial evidence against him is not as strong as it often gets presented. Again, I've not looked at the Zodiac case all that closely, and indeed, not even that for many years, so I'm working on my recall of the "take home message" I came to ages ago. Certainly I'm not saying that ALA is entirely in the clear as far as I know, but from what I remember the case against him is generally thought to be weaker now than it was when he was the top pick.

I believe the typewriter has been lost, which is a shame, as it should have been possible to match the wear pattern of the keys with the letters. Same with the shoes, they could have matched the wear pattern of the tread with the footprints found at the scene (I'm presuming the size was a match at least, but I can't recall if even that was determined).

Anyway, it's an interesting case, and I'm not sure why it's never grabbed me to delve into it more. I'm sure you know much more about it than I do, so I take your view that ALA is still a good suspect to be a more substantial one than my own. It will be interesting either way to see if anything further comes out on this though, but I'm not holding my breath.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Gloves would be more likely in my opinion, though some have suggested that his pointing out how he prevented leaving fingerprints could have been because he didn't do anything and wanted to be able to explain his prints if necessary, and since Zodiac covered his fingers with glue, that means I can't be Zodiac as my prints are there, etc. That idea also explains why he was seen wiping down the car by the kids in the window; why bother if you've covered up your fingerprints? And, I think the friend of ALA who claimed he had confessed has been shown to be unreliable and may have had a grudge against him.

ALA was a despicable individual, for sure, and he seemed to relish the attention (which would fit with Zodiac's desire for publicity), but as I understand it a lot of the circumstantial evidence against him is not as strong as it often gets presented. Again, I've not looked at the Zodiac case all that closely, and indeed, not even that for many years, so I'm working on my recall of the "take home message" I came to ages ago. Certainly I'm not saying that ALA is entirely in the clear as far as I know, but from what I remember the case against him is generally thought to be weaker now than it was when he was the top pick.

I believe the typewriter has been lost, which is a shame, as it should have been possible to match the wear pattern of the keys with the letters. Same with the shoes, they could have matched the wear pattern of the tread with the footprints found at the scene (I'm presuming the size was a match at least, but I can't recall if even that was determined).

Anyway, it's an interesting case, and I'm not sure why it's never grabbed me to delve into it more. I'm sure you know much more about it than I do, so I take your view that ALA is still a good suspect to be a more substantial one than my own. It will be interesting either way to see if anything further comes out on this though, but I'm not holding my breath.

- Jeff

hi jeff
yes its become quite fashionable to discount ALA as a suspect, eventhough many of these same people used to think he was a good suspect in the beginning, but maybe understandable based on modern reliance on dna. also, with no charges against him and the influx of other suspects, alot mainly crackpot, many have moved on to these latest "sexy" new and improved suspects lol.

one last thing on ALA in a bigger picture... the closest similar serial killer ive found to Zodiac is david berkowitz, aka Son of Sam. they were both what I would call thrill kill serial killers. both targeted lovers lane type victims, male and female, used mainly a gun, no overt sexual motivation, seemed to have a hate/ jealousy of women and mad at the world mentality. Both wrote taunting letters to public/police and seemed to revel in the game and shock value. Both displayed mental issues in their communications and both gave themselves their serial killer nicknames.

And the similarity between berkowitz and ALA is uncanny. their backgrounds and current personal situations were so alike they could be twins, with the main one being they were both the typical lonely losers, mad at the world type.