Not Again

[Rosella]

Yes of course that's true. However I was limiting it to the period of the rise of the Taliban and of Osama bin Laden, because if we go further back, to the Arab world's reaction to the founding of the State of Israel for example, that's another hornets nest. Then to the Sykes/Piquot Line another, and so on.

[Shaggyrand]

Is it possible that some of it may have come from American foreign policy decisions over the last thirty odd years, (including Bush's decisions post 9/11 which at least partly allowed for the growth of ISIS.)?

Why limit it to that time frame? Let's be honest- US, Europe and Russia have given the area little reason to love them over the past 150 years or so. Many invasions, nearly constant wars, meddling in all their affairs, repeated destabilizations for profit...

[GUT]

No longer friends. In fact, that was the last time I saw him.....four years ago now.

Another interesting part of that conversation as it relates to my family rotting in hell. Gave him a scenario:

A bushman. Lives in Africa. Totally selfless. Lives in squalor in filth his whole life. Give away anything of value. Spends his days helping others. Never thinks of himself. He eventually starves to death because he can't bear to see other's go without. But, he dies happy in the knowledge that other lived because he died. He goes to hell because he has never seen a Bible, never heard of Jesus Christ, was never baptized. Never confessed his sins. His response: "Of course."

Meanwhile. Hitler. Goes to the bunker. Converts to Catholicism. Baptized. Confirmed. Confession. All that. (There was some consternation on his part about Hitler committing suicide and that being a sin, so we agreed - for the sake of the analogy - to pretend the Red Army shot him) He is heaven? His response: "Of course. That's what the church teaches."

He was very offended when I said, simply, "That's some pretty silly $hit."

Sounds like your ex friend was a hypocrite.

[GUT]

Prior to 9/11, the most deadly terrorist attack in the US, with 168 dead, was the Oklahoma Bombing by Timothy McVeigh in 1995.

How many home grown (Christian?) terrorist killings have been aimed at Abortion clinics?

Suicide attack on the IRS building, Austin Texas, 2010. (Joseph Stack crashed plane into office building).

Planned parenthood bombing/murders, Brookline, Massachusetts, 1994, by John Salvi - Christian terrorist.

Central Olympic Park bombing, 1996, by Eric Rudolph, Christian terrorist.

The list goes on....

Extremists, are the problem, and they come in many colours.

Yep extremists of every variety.

[Rosella]

^ Patrick, I am not so naive about Islam as you seem to imagine. I also work with and know Muslims here in Australia. However, I do think, when looking at the proportions of Muslims who worldwide approved of 9/11 (which was an horrendous attack, no doubt about it) that hatred and resentment don't just spring up out of a vacuum.

Is it possible that some of it may have come from American foreign policy decisions over the last thirty odd years, (including Bush's decisions post 9/11 which at least partly allowed for the growth of ISIS.)? That's not defending Islam simply looking at the history of the Middle East. Of course radical mullahs and ISIL internet sites spread messages of hate and stir up resentments. I think that is a grave problem on its own account.

However, what's your solution? Bomb them all to Hell? There has to be a multi-pronged approach, and that includes examining the root causes of the mess the Middle East finds itself in, a mess for which the West is not blameless.

[Wickerman]

Prior to 9/11, the most deadly terrorist attack in the US, with 168 dead, was the Oklahoma Bombing by Timothy McVeigh in 1995.

How many home grown (Christian?) terrorist killings have been aimed at Abortion clinics?

Suicide attack on the IRS building, Austin Texas, 2010. (Joseph Stack crashed plane into office building).

Planned parenthood bombing/murders, Brookline, Massachusetts, 1994, by John Salvi - Christian terrorist.

Central Olympic Park bombing, 1996, by Eric Rudolph, Christian terrorist.

The list goes on....

Extremists, are the problem, and they come in many colours.

[Patrick S]

Patrick, I think your friend serves no one but himself.

And that's the main problem, isn't it? Sigh.... All I know is that any god who tells people to hate and kill other people on principle is certainly no God of mine.

No longer friends. In fact, that was the last time I saw him.....four years ago now.

Another interesting part of that conversation as it relates to my family rotting in hell. Gave him a scenario:

A bushman. Lives in Africa. Totally selfless. Lives in squalor in filth his whole life. Give away anything of value. Spends his days helping others. Never thinks of himself. He eventually starves to death because he can't bear to see other's go without. But, he dies happy in the knowledge that other lived because he died. He goes to hell because he has never seen a Bible, never heard of Jesus Christ, was never baptized. Never confessed his sins. His response: "Of course."

Meanwhile. Hitler. Goes to the bunker. Converts to Catholicism. Baptized. Confirmed. Confession. All that. (There was some consternation on his part about Hitler committing suicide and that being a sin, so we agreed - for the sake of the analogy - to pretend the Red Army shot him) He is heaven? His response: "Of course. That's what the church teaches."

He was very offended when I said, simply, "That's some pretty silly $hit."

[Pcdunn]

Patrick, I think your friend serves no one but himself.

And that's the main problem, isn't it? Sigh.... All I know is that any god who tells people to hate and kill other people on principle is certainly no God of mine.

[Robert]

Oh blimey! "Duty is only skin deep."

[Patrick S]

I have to chuckle when I remember what someone said about the Old/New Testament. He said the big fear in those days was not that people would not believe in god, but that they would believe in too many gods.

Gods are in a bad way these days. Their number has been cut dramatically, and they may be on the road to extinction. But they still pack a punch.

Why can't people just make up their own minds about things? What's the point of doing something because your god commands it?

Some gods have commanded downright silly things, like Abraham commanded to kill his son or Jesus telling people to give all their worldly goods to the poor.

The mind can only boggle.

One conversation always comes to mind when the topic of religion/God comes up. A few years back I went to Las Vegas with an old friend. We are both married. We both have kids. Anyway, to my surprise, the first night he's hounding me to go to a strip club. That's not my deal but I finally relent. We go. It's seedy. Disgusting. Uncomfortable. He disappears for a few hours. I'm sitting there, alone, fending off women who want me to "buy them a drink". The entire time I'm texting my wife, sending her photos of some of the rather shady looking customers. Anyway, the fun is over and we are heading out to catch a ride and he says, "Don't tell your wife about this." I laugh and say, "Too late!"

Anyway, the VERY NEXT MORNING we are at breakfast when he asks if my wife is going to convert to Catholicism (his religion and my former/childhood religion). I say no. He tells me that she and my unbaptized children will be in hell. I laugh and say I don't believe in that. He is BAFFLED. He asks a few questions and we establish that, yes, shocker, I don't believe in God. HE is utterly shocked and somewhat angry. He asks me what keeps me from - and I quote - 'raping and murdering'. So I ask him, "If you didn't believe in God would YOU be raping and murdering?" He says, "Yeah..." I said, "Well. I have a conscience. I know right from wrong. I don't think I could live with myself if I killed someone and it wasn't in self defense or because I had no choice. And I can't think of a circumstance in which I might feel compelled to "rape".

He said that he sure would. He'd do both. All I could think of to say was, "That sounds rational."

[Robert]

I have to chuckle when I remember what someone said about the Old/New Testament. He said the big fear in those days was not that people would not believe in god, but that they would believe in too many gods.

Gods are in a bad way these days. Their number has been cut dramatically, and they may be on the road to extinction. But they still pack a punch.

Why can't people just make up their own minds about things? What's the point of doing something because your god commands it?

Some gods have commanded downright silly things, like Abraham commanded to kill his son or Jesus telling people to give all their worldly goods to the poor.

The mind can only boggle.

[Patrick S]

Agreed

Just the radicals

I've spent a lot of time in Indonesia. At first, my interactions were friendly and respectful. As the people I'd met became more comfortable around me, more willing to share their opinions, things became somewhat less comfortable, more contentious, and I became much more aware of how I - as an American - was viewed.
If we are speaking of, say, racism is America circa 1930, I think that most would agree that one did not have to be out burning crosses, and lynching blacks to have been a part of the problem. Condoning these actions, ignoring these actions, enables those who perform them. The same can be said of Germans who clearly knew what the Nazis were doing and chose to ignore it, because they - to put it bluntly - did not consider Jews to be Germans and didn't think they belonged in German, Europe, the world. Thus, the holocaust.

World Opinion polls were taken shortly after the 9/11 attacks on America. In Indonesia, for instance, 32% of people approved of the attacks. Having lived there, this figure - actually - seemed low to me. Of course, the figure IS low, when compared with Egypt. 61% of Egyptians approved of 9/11.

More troubling, I think, is the poll showing that one in four British Muslims said the 7/7 attacks were justified.

It really does go on and on. It's always surprising to those new to studies and polls such as these. For many who have spend time in Asia and the Middle East, these opinions are - sadly - about what you'd expect.

A few more:

The Sun (2015: Following Nov. 2015 attacks in Paris, 1 in 4 young Muslims in Britain (and 1 in 5 overall) said they sympathize with those who fight for ISIS.

Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.

Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.

35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).

42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).

28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never).

Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified

ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.

BBC Radio (2015): 45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent "mainstream Islam".

Palestinian Center for Political Research (2015): 74% of Palestinians support Hamas terror attacks.

Pew Research (2014): 47% of Bangladeshi Muslims says suicide bombings and violence are justified to "defend Islam". 1 in 4 believed the same in Tanzania and Egypt. 1 in 5 Muslims in the 'moderate' countries of Turkey and Malaysia.

The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).

Gallup: 38.6% of Muslims believe 9/11 attacks were justified (7% "fully", 6.5% "mostly", 23.1% "partially")

36% of Arabs polled said the 9/11 attacks were morally justified; 38% disagreed; 26% Unsure

And, if you want to talk about MAINSTREAM Muslim beliefs, these polls are pretty illustrative of what you're dealing with. These are the things that you learn once you get to know people and they start to relax and "trust" you to some extent. Anyway...

83% of Pakistanis support stoning adulterers

78% of Pakistanis support killing apostates

NOP Research: 68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam

World Public Opinion: 64% of Egyptians said it was “very important for the government” to “apply traditional punishments for crimes such as stoning adulterers.”

Pew Research (2013): 81% of South Asian Muslims and 57% of Egyptians support amputating limbs for theft.

Pew Research (2013): 45% of Sharia supporters surveyed disagreed with the idea that Islamic law should apply only to Muslims.


What continues to shock me is that defending Islam has become associated with liberal thought. That is to say, most of the people I hear advocating "tolerance" toward Muslims, touting the theory that "most Muslims" are peaceful, wonderful people who are horrified by terrorism. And, while this is - on its face - a true statement (based on polling of Muslims worldwide - even if the percentages of those who condone or simply will not condemn terrorism usually checks in around 35-40%) what is also clear is that Islam is about as far away from ideals of Western 'liberalism' as you can get. Compared to the Average Muslim cleric in New York, London, Paris, Kuala Lumpur.....Donald Trump looks like Ted Kennedy.

[GUT]

Well, in that case many millions of Muslims world-wide must be very bad adherents to their faith mustn't they, as they aren't out daily slaughtering, raping and pillaging as Mohammed presumably wants.

I speak as an Aussie with a country to our north (Indonesia) that has one of the world's largest Muslim populations within its borders. I've been there several times over the years and experienced nothing but friendly behaviour.

Agreed

Just the radicals

[Rosella]

Well, in that case many millions of Muslims world-wide must be very bad adherents to their faith mustn't they, as they aren't out daily slaughtering, raping and pillaging as Mohammed presumably wants.

I speak as an Aussie with a country to our north (Indonesia) that has one of the world's largest Muslim populations within its borders. I've been there several times over the years and experienced nothing but friendly behaviour.

[Beowulf]

in terms of ISIS, it really dosnt look like any other country is going to take the lead in defeating them. I was hoping if there was any silver lining in the lack of US leadership on this that someone else would step up to the plate. But they havnt and I doubt they will. Every country seems to just be doing there own thing and that is NOT going to do it.


Unfortunately it seems that we will sit here and wait for another 911 like attack by ISIS. Believe me, if they are not dealt with decisively-its coming.
They are probably planning it as we speak.

If I was president I would get a coalition of mid eastern and western countries and wipe Raqqa off the map. Cut the head off the snake and the body will die.

subsequently I would maintain the coalition in the region so that ISIS and other extremist groups like ISIS cant gain and grow in power or territory.

However, I would abandon the policy of deposing leaders(Saddam, quadaffi, Bashir etc) of mid eastern countries if they pose no real threat to outside world, US or allies.

Thought this news interesting:

'France Raids Mosques, What Was Found Should Have Us Demolishing Them ALL

French police raided a mosque Sunday, finding what they call a “staggering” amount of weapons, ammunition, and terrorist propaganda.
Following the Islamic terror attacks in Paris that killed over 130 people, France has begun raiding mosques, despite cries of “Islamophobia” and racism. However, what police found Muslims hiding there is more than enough to have us demanding they all be torn down.

In a controversial move, a mosque in Lagny-sur-Marne was thoroughly raided by French authorities Sunday after its members were suspected of supporting the Paris terror attacks and the Islamic State (ISIS/Daesh). What they found was absolutely chilling.

France 24 reports that police uncovered massive stash of 7.62mm Kalashnikov ammunition and ISIS propaganda videos. A revolver and “jihadist documents” were also found at the home of one of the mosque leaders.

At least 334 weapons were confiscated and 232 Muslims were arrested, with 22 under surveillance with travel bans and 9 placed under house arrest.

This is the third mosque to be closed in France since the Paris attack on November 13. As a result of the terror attacks, 2,235 homes have been subsequently raided.

“In 15 days we have seized one-third of the quantity of war-grade weapons that are normally seized in a year,” France’s Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve told Express.

Police also found recordings of religious chants “glorifying the martyrs of jihad linked to the terrorist organisation Jabhat al-Nusra,” the Syrian branch of Al-Qaeda, the prefecture added.
While those of us on the right warn that more gun control will only leave us defenseless, France has proven it with their own failed policies. All but banning weapons hasn’t stopped Islamic terrorists from obtaining them, as these raids have shown. This is one instance where we should learn from the mistakes of others, rather than making more of our own — mistakes that will cost more American lives than we’ve already seen lost at the hands of those who follow Islam, Allah, and his pedophile prophet.

President of the local Muslim association, Mohammed Ramdane, criticized the police’s closure of the mosque, blaming them for setting up local Muslims.

The ISIS videos were found among an abundance of teaching material for Muslim children of a connected madrassa.

“Nothing has been found,” he claimed. “Nothing is hidden, we don’t hide anything.”
So far, the Schengen Agreement allows the EU’s 400 million residents and other non-EU nationals to freely cross Europe without showing an ID or waiting to be screened. Because of it, thousands who support Islamic terror and wish to terrorize European civilians are now in Europe.

Although the left attempts to argue that most mosques won’t harbor weapons or terrorists, we must remember that it only took a handful of Muslims to slaughter more than 130 people in Paris. Of course, political correctness has perpetuated these attacks, making witnesses afraid to come forward with information for fear they will be labeled racist or Islamophobic.

Still, these mosques are teaching from the Quran, the same book that contains 109 verses that command all Muslims to be violent and slaughter unbelievers in order to receive an eternal reward. In case any of these imams or Muslim mosque goers decide that the Quran is actually peaceful and not to be taken literally, they only need to look at the only “interpretation” that Allah said matters — Muhammad’s.

As the messenger of Allah, Muhammad wasn’t only charged with preaching the divine revelation, but modeling it for followers to copy. Because Muhammad beheaded, raped, enslaved, and conquered until the day of his death, Muslims must behead, rape, enslave, and conquer as he did. If they do not emulate their prophet to the best of their ability, the Quran states that they are hypocrites who will share hell with their infidel friends."

http://madworldnews.com/france-raids-mosques/