Capital punishment

[pinkmoon]

Thy shall not kill simple as that and two wrongs don't make a right we shouldn't kill people

[Robert]

Thy shall not kill simple as that and two wrongs don't make a right we shouldn't kill people

You'd have been screwed in World War Two then, Pink.

[lynn cates]

heart vs head

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Quite. But what do you say to the bloke from whom you've taken 25 years? "Oops! Sorry lad, heart was in the right place but my head was stuck firmly up my . . . "

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

cliche

Hello Jason.

"two wrongs don't make a right we shouldn't kill people"

Indeed. But why is it WRONG? To put that another way, cliches don't get us very far.

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

"Thou shalt not kill" was first said by someone or other. If it was first said by the bloke who destroyed entire cities because his children were disobeying him....well....a bit tainted there.

[Harry D]

I have one major objection to the death penalty.

I know that Courts and juries get it wrong.

Far too often for comfort if there is no remedy, and with the Death Penalty there is no remedy when the Court gets it wrong.

I've always liked the argument that only a complete and utter pacifist would oppose capital punishment. After all, invariably in war innocent lives will be lost but we don't let that stop us.

[GUT]

I've always liked the argument that only a complete and utter pacifist would oppose capital punishment. After all, invariably in war innocent lives will be lost but we don't let that stop us.

The difference being that in war they may not be an alternative but in justice there is "Life means Life" then if it transpires we made a mistake we can release them, once we exe cute someone there is no going back.

Perhaps I am influenced by having known people who were later shown innocent, but who would have been dead before they were vindicated if we had the Death Penalty.

[sdreid]

Although an aquaintance and not really a friend, I have known one person who was executed, Alan Jeffrey "A J" Bannister. He received the death penalty in 1997 for a supposed Missouri murder for hire. I believe Bannister maintained that the shooting was actually the result of a struggle over a gun and that he had only gone to see the man to discuss some matters.

[Mayerling]

The difference being that in war they may not be an alternative but in justice there is "Life means Life" then if it transpires we made a mistake we can release them, once we exe cute someone there is no going back.

Perhaps I am influenced by having known people who were later shown innocent, but who would have been dead before they were vindicated if we had the Death Penalty.

G'Day GUT,

Well, I worked for three decades at the N.Y.S. Crime Victims Board, so my take on murderers was quite dim as a result. Also, one of my co-workers insisted on using the cliché that you will recognize, "Better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent one be executed." One day I flummoxed him by saying, "Better one innocent man get executed if 100 guilty men also get executed." He suddenly couldn't answer that one.

However, to show I really am not that callous, I am aware of the problem of people convicted who should not have been. Also, many people who support the death penalty suddenly change their tune if the party up for possible execution if guilty, is socially and economically and ethnically in their own class. All of a sudden there appear all these "reasonable" doubt issues about using the death penalty the individual will rarely use otherwise, but now finds he or she can't do without. This flexibility is another reason to question the entire issue of using the death penalty at all.

Jeff

[Robert]

My attitude is :

1. I have no moral objection to executing murderers (and a few other groups such as rapists).
2. Because of the possibility of mistakes, life without parole would be a good substitute.
3. The question should be settled by the people whose necks are at stake, both as potential victims of murder and as potential victims of mistakes, i.e. the general public in a referendum.

[barnflatwyngarde]

"There is no doubt that our judicial system is flawed in the way that very dangerous and evil criminals are allowed their freedom after a ridiculously short time in prison, but let us not allow this frustration drive us to even consider the barbarity of legalised murder."

These people are not being executed because they once jaywalked or had too many parking tickets. Let's be real here.

c.d.

By "real" I assume that you are happy to have people killed in your name.

[bkohatl]

Henry "Billy the Kid" McCarty and the death penalty

Henry McCarty was shot and killed by Sheriff Pat Garrett in Fort Sumner, New Mexico in 1881, who had a death warrant.
In the election which followed Henry's shooting, Garrett was voted out of office in a landslide. He ran for Sheriff in neighboring jurisdictions, he lost every time.
Garrett ran for Sheriff in Silver City, New Mexico, Henry's hometown. Incumbent Sheriff Whitehill beat him handily. Sheriff Whitehill had been the first lawman to arrest Henry. He actually did it to scare Henry straight. Henry had stolen some food, after he became an orphan, and held some clothes stolen by another boy.
Sheriff Whitehill said that Garrett was a bounty hunter, not a sheriff. A sheriff worries about justice, bounty hunters kill people.
What was his opinion of Henry? Sheriff Whitehill and his wife, Harriet, had decided to take Henry into their family as their own kid, after a few days in jail. Their son Harry was Henry's best friend and they both felt very close to Henry. Henry was probably the smartest kid in school, his head was always buried in a book. Everyone said what a great kid he was until his Mom died.
Henry's Mom, Catherine, was one of the Whitehill's best friends, they had helped Henry(14) and Joe McCarty(11) dig their mamma's grave.
Pat Garrett's deputy, Robert "Hello Bob" Olinger had been one of the "deputies" who murdered Henry's boss, John Tunstall, in cold blood. Olinger had been accused of several murders, a couple of times he killed people who accused him of cheating at cards. He had actually been arrested for murder as a deputy, something which never happened. But the DA, William Rynerson refused to prosecute him.
Judge Bristol and District Attorney Rynerson were part of a conspiracy to steal John Tunstall's ranch, the Flying H Ranch, also his cattle, horses and store. They faked documents to steal these assets, then ordered the posse to murder the Englishman to close the deal.
DA Rynerson was famous for murdering the Chief Justice of the New Mexico Supreme Court, General John Slough. Slough had started several investigations of corruption though out the territory. Slough was firing police officers, Judges and District Attorney's for corruption. When he accused Rynerson of corruption, Rynerson shot him.
Henry testified before a grand jury with the promise of a pardon. 50 men were indicted by the grand jury which heard his testimony. Rynerson refused to prosecute most cases, orchestrated acquittals for the rest, many argue with the active aid of Judge Bristol.
The only conviction and death sentence were against Henry McCarty. Henry's original attorney, Ira Leonard, was "fired" by Judge Bristol after he won an acquittal against the first charge brought against Henry.
A new attorney was appointed for Henry, who was totally unfamiliar with the case. Observers said that Judge Bristol rammed through a conviction, acting as a prosecutor, not a judge including venue shopping to win a conviction.

Now, exactly who were the good guys and who were the bad guys?

[c.d.]

By "real" I assume that you are happy to have people killed in your name.

Hello Barnflatwyngarde,

The point that I was making is that these people are not being executed for trivial offenses nor are their names being pulled randomly from the phone book. Yet, from reading your posts you seem to feel that it is the rest of society that is the guilty party and that somehow the nature of what they did should not enter into the decision. I simply disagree. I think society has a right to determine what is acceptable behavior and what behavior is so egregious and so beyond the pale that you have to pay the ultimate price for what you did.

I certainly am not "happy" about it but I am a member of that society and I certainly have no problem with it.

If you start a controversial thread where you ask for people's opinions you should not get upset when you get an opinion you disagree with.

c.d.

[Pcdunn]

Here in Colorado, we have just completed the trial and penalty determination by jury of James Holmes, the disturbed medical student who three years ago burst into a screening of a Batman film and opened fire on the audience. He apparently felt the only way to avoid his going mad was to "kill lots of people." He suceeded in killing several people, including a six-year-old girl, and wounding many others.

The newspapers say the jury's decision to give Holmes a sentence of imprisonment for life without possibilty of parole came down to one juror who would not agree with the majority on the death sentence. It is a tremendous responsibilty, doling out life and death.

[c.d.]

Hello Pat,

I was really shocked by that verdict. I thought for sure that the jury would go with the death penalty.

c.d.