Bnp

[Cogidubnus]

Actually exclusionism is declaring that certain people aren't "real Englishmen" despite their English birth. Usually because they come from immigrant families or the non white parts of the Empire, or even because they have a different religion.

And I have no wish to start some nationalistic fight, certainly everybody does it. But you guys have been mocking yourselves for it for the past 200 years, all the while still doing it. Last time I was there you lot were still none too fond of Catholics, although Jews were alright. And my friend whose Indian family had been British citizens and provided the first Indian bodyguards to Queen Victoria since the 1880s was still called a foreigner. It is exclusion. It certainly looks to an outsider and to some insiders that the old image of the beef and pudding white man with whiskers was British, and the farther you got away from that, the less British one was considered. Regardless of how long such people had actually been British.

Utter bollocks I'm afraid...I'm about as "English" as you get (though I think you may have meant "British" and it's a very much mongrelised breed down the years) and I regard anyone hailing from the lands of the former "Empire" as just as British as I am, and honestly welcome them...if anything, we owe them...I'm still ashamed our then government got so itchy about the Hong Kong Chinese...

I'm not so sure about some of the Eastern Europeans I encounter as part of the EU, however, but I'm currently witholding judgement on that....I'm not being in the least racist, but just looking at practicalities...

So we're talking immigration are we...so immediately pre the events of 1939/1940 which nation legally took in (without obligation) the most jews from threatened european states? Which nation is still legally taking in the most immigrants from threatened nations? I honestly don't know but am pretty sure it wasn't the USA....which of the major nations with the most space first initiated immigration quotas?

I'm sorry to appear offensive but you honestly haven't a frigging clue how downright racist you're actually being

[Roy Corduroy]

Americans are surprised when they hear someone not white speaking with a British accent.

I'm not. At work, I might talk to a black person with a British accent, or a person from the Indian subcontinent with a British accent. A hot blonde with a Polish accent. Sooner or later, they all begin to say things like 'yall' or 'bless your heart' in their own inimitable way.

As to any other points you raise, I defer to the Brits because they are more than capable of speaking for themselves.

Roy

[Errata]

I give up. I've tried to say it a bunch of different ways, and the first time somehow I was trying to say that Britain needed the EU despite my having no opinion whatsoever on the EU, and then I was told to brush up my history as to how Britain could never be like Nazi Germany, despite the obvious parallels between the political ad I referenced and Nazi Germany, and now because I say that Britain's image doesn't match up with it's multicultural fact, I'm a racist.

Okay. I'm an ignorant racist.


But speaking of which, Britain in no way shape or form gets to sit on some sort of moral high horse for the Kindertransport program. Which I would have thought would have been obvious, but apparently it was not.

I don't want to argue it anymore. I cared there for like, a minute, but I'm done now. I am totally okay with going to hell for being so wrong. I am fine with the Great White Savior idea, you guys can do no wrong, we should all be so blessed as to be as open minded and absolutely fair as you. So there you go.

[Beowulf]

My concern was that if the US goes to hell, where am I going to run to? It had been England, but if England starts racial cleansing, I'm going to need a back up plan.

There's always Canada

[Limehouse]

[QUOTE=Errata;294595]
And that's why Americans are surprised when they hear someone not white speaking with a British accent. We aren't surprised by people of color from Australia, or White Africans. We are literally about as surprised by a black man from England as we are by a black man from Japan, and Japan completely owns it's exclusionism. While we intellectually know that you have to have black people and Asiatic people, we don't see it anywhere. You can name five famous black American actors. Most Americans probably can't name even one black British actor. You have the diversity, but it is nowhere in your national image. And there is no answer to why it's not part of your national image that doesn't circle right back to exclusionism. Whether your country meant to be exclusive or not. It is. You guys aren't white protestant enough anymore to sell yourselves as white protestant. But that's all anyone sees. And that's what I mean when I say you have a problem with exclusion. Aside from whats going on amongst yourselves, it's a problem in what you present to the world.
QUOTE]

I think there are several reasons for the views you have expressed (I've put them in bold) and none of them are to do with our exclusionism.

Firstly, there are far more black people in America than in Britain and blacks have been in America in large numbers far longer than they have been in Britain. Therefore, they are bound to be represented more in your popular culture.

Secondly, the USA dominates (and has done for a very long time) the film industry. Therefore, many films viewed across the world are made in America, by Americans. Thus, black actors get a lot more exposure. Additionally, although there are some British TV shows broadcast in America, there is far more American TV shown here - thus again black actors get exposure.

What I would like you to think about is that, in America, a black person is far more likely to be convicted and imprisoned and far, far more likely to be executed. That is a very strong image that America presents to the world.

[Abby Normal]

my wife and I were in London a few years ago and were cutting across Hyde park very early in the morning to go get breakfast when we heard some wailing and crying noises coming from the middle of the pond. Low and behold there is a buck naked Englishman in the pond threatening to kill himself.

as we are standing there trying to take this all in up walks a bobby, complete with mustache, big ole bobby hat and motioning with his truncheon he calls out to the man-" chin up laddy, It cant be that bad. cmon in and put your clothes back on and we'll have a chat."

sure enough he replies "yer probably right." and out he comes and with a pat on his back the bobby hands him his clothes and the man quietly and resolutely starts putting his clothes back on. at this point we continued on.

God I love the British.

[Fleetwood Mac]

What I would like you to think about is that, in America, a black person is far more likely to be convicted and imprisoned and far, far more likely to be executed. That is a very strong image that America presents to the world.

I don't recognise that image.

When I think of the United States I think of a nation with sound political ideals, a nation which has carried itself very well give or take the odd transgression, but then again which nation hasn't erred?

All in all, I'm a bit of a fan of the United States and when you think of the worst nations like the United States and England have done, it pales into insignificance compared with the vast majority of countries on this earth.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I give up. I've tried to say it a bunch of different ways, and the first time somehow I was trying to say that Britain needed the EU despite my having no opinion whatsoever on the EU, and then I was told to brush up my history as to how Britain could never be like Nazi Germany, despite the obvious parallels between the political ad I referenced and Nazi Germany, and now because I say that Britain's image doesn't match up with it's multicultural fact, I'm a racist.

Okay. I'm an ignorant racist.


But speaking of which, Britain in no way shape or form gets to sit on some sort of moral high horse for the Kindertransport program. Which I would have thought would have been obvious, but apparently it was not.

I don't want to argue it anymore. I cared there for like, a minute, but I'm done now. I am totally okay with going to hell for being so wrong. I am fine with the Great White Savior idea, you guys can do no wrong, we should all be so blessed as to be as open minded and absolutely fair as you. So there you go.

Ha'way Errata, you sound like bairn who's taking her ball home.

Look, England is not perfect but it's the best the world has to offer.

[GUT]

G'day Fleetwood Mac

Ha'way Errata, you sound like bairn who's taking her ball home.

Look, England is not perfect but it's the best the world has to offer.

I think most would say that about their home.... But we know you all want to live in Aus.

[Errata]

Ha'way Errata, you sound like bairn who's taking her ball home.

Look, England is not perfect but it's the best the world has to offer.

I'm not taking my ball home, I've simply given up on the idea of explaining my comments in any way that someone is willing to hear what I have to say. Maybe I'm saying it wrong. Maybe people are getting defensive. Maybe both, or none of the above. But no matter the reason, it's not worth getting into a fight over. It's an opinion, not a defining belief. I'm still reading the thread. I've just dropped my argument. And sure I'm a little peeved that apparently the only explanations for my thoughts were that either I was an idiot or a racist, but I'll get over it. I always do.

And this was never about some comparison with other flawed countries, but in comparison to a country's best self. Despite all the surface similarities between Britain and the US, it's still apples and oranges, if for no other reason that sheer size.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm not taking my ball home, I've simply given up on the idea of explaining my comments in any way that someone is willing to hear what I have to say. Maybe I'm saying it wrong. Maybe people are getting defensive. Maybe both, or none of the above. But no matter the reason, it's not worth getting into a fight over. It's an opinion, not a defining belief. I'm still reading the thread. I've just dropped my argument. And sure I'm a little peeved that apparently the only explanations for my thoughts were that either I was an idiot or a racist, but I'll get over it. I always do.

And this was never about some comparison with other flawed countries, but in comparison to a country's best self. Despite all the surface similarities between Britain and the US, it's still apples and oranges, if for no other reason that sheer size.

I gave you a different reason, Errata, and that is that while you are clearly well read on many subjects, you are not well read on this subject. That much is clear.

That doesn't make you an idiot, perhaps a little arrogant in that you've come on here talking about England and her obvious streak of 'exclusionism' when it's as plain as day that you haven't really thought about this much given England's traditions and actions down the centuries.

In terms of comparison between England and the United States, there are many, many areas in which we see things differently and many, many areas of difference in the way we conduct ourselves. In some ways you have far more in common with continental Europe. But, the one thing we share, which to me is the most important thing and the thing that means we are natural allies despite our differences, is we are both fiercely individualistic and are inclined to think small local government is a better bet than an overbearing central government. Given how most political ideals flow from an over-riding principle then politics is seen similarly in the England and the United States. The only difference being that there are so many people crammed into this island that it has inevitably led to more social programmes than you have in the US (as we're all on top of one another it has become difficult to maintain said individualism).

And, this goes back to the point about England and the EU. If we are an innately sceptical, pragmatic and realist people with a history of slow, steady change and moderation; and the continental Europeans generally believe in large, central government who can change the lives for the better of its citizens, with a history of extreme politics and countless revolutions as a means of change: then how on earth can these two peoples be part of a United States of Europe?

We just can't. Because we think differently. When negotiation time comes we'll always be in the minority opinion and it follows thus open to having our tradition, heritage and political ideals, which are certainly important to me and people I know, stamped all over.

This doesn't mean I don't like them, although admittedly I'm ambivalent towards the French and their history for what I believe are good reasons, it doesn't mean I don't want to visit, which I do regularly, it just means that I want my ideas heard and they're not going to be heard in a United States of Europe with hundreds of millions of people the majority of whom do not think like me.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I think most would say that about their home.... But we know you all want to live in Aus.

Hello, GUT.

I think the majority of English people do head to Australia, mainly because they want what they see as England in the sun and a chance to start again.

My Sister spent time in Australia and loved it. Quite a few people I know moved there.

It's not for me, though, because firstly England is the place for me and secondly if I decided to move somewhere it would have to be a complete change (language, culture, everything), and thirdly if I was going to move somewhere sharing our language it would be the United States.

Problem with Australia, and the United States comes to think of it, is that you have things over there that want to kill you and I'm sort of accustomed to having a moderate climate and moderate animals where the worst you're going to get is a pack of rabbits hunting you down.

[GUT]

G'day FM

I'm glad you don't want to move here, and I don't mean that personally, just too many here already, almost 23 million.

And there's not much here that wants to kill you, just it will if it thinks it has too. Like brown snakes will try to get away from you but if they're trapped well you know. Kangaroos are kittens unless they feel threatened etc.

[Abby Normal]

G'day FM

I'm glad you don't want to move here, and I don't mean that personally, just too many here already, almost 23 million.

And there's not much here that wants to kill you, just it will if it thinks it has too. Like brown snakes will try to get away from you but if they're trapped well you know. Kangaroos are kittens unless they feel threatened etc.

Hey gut
I know of four instances where Americans I know who lived in Australia said that the Aussies for the most part were not very nice to them. What's up with that?

[GUT]

G'day Abby

Like anywhere some people are pr444ks. But if you make an effort to fit and don't think you're Gods gift I think Aussies are generally open and friendly, if you are up yourself we can be pretty quick to take the micky and if you get upset about it, it will only get worse, laugh at it and you're in.

If you don't like being called a bloody Yank or a Pommie Bastard Australia is not the place for you, we tend to be a pretty irreverent bunch on the whole.